Called to Flourish Podcast - Autism & Religion

0:10Welcome to the latest edition of the Call to Flourish podcast, of Divine Mercy University. My name is father Charles Sikorsky. I'm the president at Divine Mercy University. And today, we are gonna have a discussion. It's gonna be really interesting about faith, prayer, and autism. And today with me, as my special guest cohost is Bradley Cypher. Bradley is, a member of our admissions team here at Divine Mercy University, and Bradley is finishing up his doctorate in theology at Ave Maria University. So welcome to the podcast, Bradley. Thank you, father. It's good to be here. And so today's special guest is father Matthew Schneider. Father Matthew is a member of the Legionaries of Christ. He is a former assistant chaplain, at Divine Mercy University, and he's currently a faculty member teaching theology, at Belmont Abbey College in in North Carolina.

1:10And so we're really blessed to have father Matthew with us. Hello, father Matthew. Hello, father Charles. It's a blessing to be here too. And so today's talk, father Matthew, is just written recently written a book called God Loves the Autistic Mind. God Loves the Autistic Mind. And he wrote it based on his personal experience, and and and the desire to want to evangelize people who have autism. And, it's it's a fascinating story and it's a really interesting, topic because according to the government statistics, one in forty four children are born with, on the autistic spectrum. Around one of every twenty seven boys and one of one of every one hundred and sixteen girls, I think it is, have this, this, condition, which talk about neurodiversity.

2:09We'll get into all that. And so it's affecting more and more. I think it's doing one and a half and two percent of the population overall has this. And so many people, families are are are, dealing with this, and many people of faith. And and the question is how do we how do we, help a person with this, with this issue to know God, to love God. So, father Matthew, why don't we start why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and and what led you to to write your book? I was ordained with the Legions of Christ. I had my first assignment as, like, a grade school chaplain, and I didn't do great at that. And, so I was that did that only lasted for about a year. And at that point, some of the people in the administration at the school suggested, maybe there's something, you know, at at the time, it was still called Asperger's, you know, and and, with Asperger's or something.

3:06And so after that, I, you know, I looked at a little later getting and I got a diagnosis for, with autism Autism spectrum disorder because in the meantime, we had the DSM five, which kind of combined AstraZeneca's and autism. And from there, relatively soon afterwards, I realized the dearth of information that there is for Catholics, for Christians in general on the topic because I was reading a whole bunch of books on autism, and there were books on this aspect of life and autism, that aspect of life and autism, and almost nothing on prayer and autism or on Christian life as an autistic person or anything like that. And I felt quite early on after that that we needed some book like that, and myself being already a priest who had a decent amount of experience with that and being someone who was diagnosed, it, would probably be one of the people who might write something like that.

4:05So that was that was kind of the inspiration. A few years after that, I end up getting a contract with Pauline Press Pauline Press, the daughters of Saint Paul, and, we published it in, June of this year. So And so you were diagnosed a little bit later in life. What what are some of the, how do we know someone might be autistic? And what are some common signs that might indicate that and that someone might wanna get, tested? Well, the the diagnostic criteria for autism aren't that you have to have all of the same, criteria for every person who's autistic. If you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. But there's there's certain categories of of things, and you have to have a certain number of checks in each category.

4:53And one of them would be, like, a sensory difference. Now this can vary a lot. A lot of autistic people are very sensitive to light, and so they'd, even in a normal office like this, will be wearing sunglasses or something like that. And if you have a child who's can't stand five minutes in the sun without wearing their sunglasses, even on a cloudy day, you might have you might have some kind of sign there. Or if you have a child who just who can't stand touching and just the lightest touch is too much or really wants just to, like, bare hug them constantly, those kind of differences in sensory aspect. Another thing is the the aspect of social interactions that our emotions don't operate at exactly the same frequency kind of thing as most people.

5:37And so we'll have difficulties in social situations. Like I mentioned, that was kind of what led me on the path towards that. Or we'll have we'll have unusual emotional reactions to certain things, and you'll notice that in in children. You also notice certain things children will be often delayed in is often kind of the the spark for parents. A child who's noticed to be older than they should be and still hasn't spoken or still hasn't set a complete sentence. Autism is often one of the things because sometimes with the sensory processing and things like that, that can turn into a difficulty with speech. And, also, the tendency with words to think of the the denotative or literal meaning of the word and not the connotative or interpreted meaning of the word.

6:27For for example, it took me a while and I have to really think about it. If somebody's using words in a a sentence in a sarcastic manner, I'm probably the one least likely to pick up on it they're using it sarcastically, and I might think of it more literally. An idea an idea of a a connotative versus a denotative meaning is well, a connotative meaning is, I mean, the denotative meaning, the literal meaning is just what the meaning is in the dictionary. The connotated meaning is the interpretive meaning in the context Mhmm. And the social situations and the nonverbal communication with it, the tone of voice that might indicate somebody's just joking about something or something like that. And and as well and so those are kind those are often the main kind of signs that people will will recognize it in a child or in an adult.

7:16There are some kind of internal signs in a sense of our brain working differently. Like, one of the things once I was diagnosed that really confirmed it for me was I realized that there are many, many things in social situations that most of you are doing subconsciously, that I had over my lifespan learned to do consciously. And being on the more intelligent end of the human the human spectrum, obviously, being a university professor, I'm not I I'm not, intellectually delayed or anything. The I was able to do that and to have these conscious clues for social interactions that got me passively through life, but I'm not really as fluent in it as others. So I think those are kind of signs you would have, both internal and external signs of autism because it really is an internal experience, but an internal experience often produces external results.

8:13One last sign is a lot of times we we like things, you know, very regimented because we'll have trouble just planning out planning out our our day and our life. I know for myself, I don't need it absolutely regimented, but I need to know forty eight hours in advance what the plan is. Like, if you if some people are like, oh, let's go to the city and have have a fun day. And I'm like, okay. You know, let's plan out the whole the whole trip because otherwise, I'm gonna be stressed about it the whole time. Yeah. Father Matthew, so you've spoken to some of the, challenges that autistic persons often encounter. But what would be some of the strengths that are most common to those with autism? One thing about autism is you tend to have a special interest or interest where you can go very deep in and you can know very well.

8:59One thing I would notice that even in the seminary, I got the nickname Schneiderpedia from my fellow seminarians because I would just I would know the material extremely well. I I I did very, very well in in especially undergraduate studies where I was just knowing all the material in theology, philosophy, things like that. And with that, that can be a huge strength that you can remember a whole lot of information. You can also, at times, see through, like, kind of fakeness or dishonesty, to see more authentic reality of people. And oftentimes, in a team, if you're able to collaborate, the autistic person can see a different perspective. It does not necessarily right or wrong, but it's a different one so that that can help out the whole team because we have we have people who have different perspectives.

9:51You're more likely to get a better perspective going forward if you have four different perspectives to start with than if everybody is working on the same same basic perspective to start with. So, father Matthew, I've heard, that atheism can be more common among autistic people. Is that true? So I definitely think that that's true. I have I actually mentioned that in the introduction of my book. I talk about that less less practice of faith and things. I think there's a number of factors in that. One is that we tend to be very logical thinkers. And being very logical, we tend to either be religious and that we try to make it to mass once a week or more or atheist. There's there's much let money if you're autistics in the kind of Christmas and Easter Catholics for lack of a better description, because either god exists and I should worship him and I should spend time with him, or he doesn't exist.

10:49And why would I bother with this social custom of going to church a few times a year just because? And so I think that's part of it in the sense that we we, autistics, will tend to split more in that spectrum. And so a lot of the people who would be technically being God and kind of barely practicing on a normal spectrum would become atheist in of in autism. And, also, I think there's a lot of aspects of religion not being sensory friendly or religion not adapting its explanations to kind of this more logical, autistic mindset that we can actually change as a as a church to really help address that, to have more autistic people become active in their faith. So I think that there's a number of factors like that, and I think that that's a that it's it is it is a serious aspect among among those on the spectrum.

11:46Excellent. Well, thank you for that. What about how does faith fit in everyday life, the autistic person and his family? Well, I would say, for the most part, it fits in relatively similar to how it would fit in for an average person. Right? Like, I'm a religious. I go to pray every morning. I and now I when I go to pray and I do my hour of mental prayer in the morning, I I think that I tend to use more more logic and less emotion than the average person, but and I have different ways of using my imagination in that prayer. But I think in a certain sense, it's very similar to everybody else. I'm living my life. I am praying every day. I'm going I'm saying mass or going to mass regularly and things like that.

12:30So I think that that is very similar to non autistic people in the sense of prayer and liturgy throughout your day or your week. Yeah. So you mentioned that the, the aspect of logic and and, you know, does God exist or not and kinda wanting to know what the the reasons why and so forth. And so it could be a struggle sometimes for the faith can be a little bit more emotional at times or for some people. But what are the what do you think so what what are what are the aspects about the faith, the Catholic faith, that may be easier for an autistic people are to understand and believe as opposed to, someone who who doesn't who doesn't have perspective? Now there's a number of different things. I I think a good way to go about this question is to think of what book was most influential for me as a teenager.

13:26Because a lot of people have books that really influenced them as a teenager, and they're often very spiritual books or, you know, testimony books. And the book that really influenced me the most as a teenager in my spiritual life was The Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreft and Robert Cecelli, which is a is a is still a pretty good book. It's it's really the first chapter's logic and the second chapter is does God exist? Okay. Well, let's look. Here's 25 proofs for the for God's existence. Next next chapter is is does have an exist, and it's very logical and it's very working out. And I think a lot of times, aspects like that, the kind of philosophical, kind of logical, theological, aspects of our faith are very helpful and can be more active for an autistic person, whereas something that's much more emotive might not be as attractive for one on the spectrum in general.

14:20Let me let me give you an example. I'm just speculating. I'm talking here, you know, thinking about this. You know, some people have a the problem of pain or of evil in the world. And would it be easier for an autistic person to understand, well, there is a god, though, and and and look at it more logically because that could be let me say, okay. Bad things happen to good people, and sometimes that can cause a person to doubt god's existence. And would you say maybe an autistic person could handle that situation better, or or or is that also a big challenge for them as well? I think it's a big challenge for them. I do know that there is, a lot of difficulties and things like that, but there is kind of that logical strength that can sometimes get through that.

15:12I'm trying to remember who it was. It's somebody I said in my book, and they did a study where they were where they were comparing autistic and non autistic kids in religious education and how many questions they asked. And the autistic kids tended to ask less questions off the bat, but they ask more existential questions like that like that one. How, you know, how can an evil exist and questions like that, which was which was kind of interesting in that regard. And I think that is that is a challenge for anyone, but and I think that our logical way of thinking can help get through it more than somebody else who can be overly emotional about it. But that's not a guarantee, and I and it's not that that is easy for anybody to to think through, to to work through.

15:55So father Matthew, you mentioned some of, you know, the ways in which autistic persons, you know, see faith in more logical ways. What about specifically coming of age when you're a teenager and things like this when sometimes, it's common for the teenage faith to be often linked with emotion and things like this and being able to connect with God in a relationship is is often really important in sort of our teen in many people's teenage years when it comes to, coming to faith. Does that often pose some sort of tension with a lot of autistic people that maybe that's not exactly how they tend to go about faith? So in other words, just the coming of age chapter in a person's life, what as Elizabeth faced difficult for an autistic person?

16:34Well, I think that there's two aspects to address in your question. The first one is kind of how we do youth ministry, and I do think that there are issues for autistic people in that. And as I was expressing before, how we need to explain the faith better in an autistic mindset. And I definitely think a lot of youth ministry practice where it's very, very emotional and super emotionally centered are probably not the best for helping autistics really live their faith. Now, obviously, at the same time, it's not that we don't have personal relationships, not that we don't want to have a relationship with God, relationship with our friends, and things like that, and we do. And so it's just finding those ways in which we can have those relationships.

17:13One of the things you'll if if you look at for autism online in various different things, autistics will tend to have relationships more around different activities and not just kind of go to hang out, but you'll have the autistics who play Dungeons and Dragons or play Catan or or things like that together, and they make a friend group through doing those things. Yeah. Interesting. Thank you. As far as prayer, are there particular types of prayer that are are better or come easier for the autistic person, and and what might be a bigger challenge? Like, so if you're like, if you would recommend someone and say, hey. I wanna help my my son learn to pray. What would you recommend? Absolutely, I should read your book.

18:02But Yeah. Go ahead. Well, I mean, I have I have the book here, and it's got, like, a whole chapter on this. Actually, it's two chapters on it. But, the the first thing I would say is just to think of why we do things in prayer and think of if that why applies to an autistic person. For example, we often talk about you'll often hear the verse cited from, I think it's, the Psalms, be still and know that I am God. And this idea of us being very still in our posture when we're praying. Right? You you know, at least when I was a little kid, it was, like, taught you, like, kneel perfectly at the side of your bed and pray your night prayers and things. Whereas for an autistic person, a lot of times, that's actually distracting and some kind of what we would call stimming, which is some kind of repetitive motion, will actually be a way to pray better and really get what the goal of that of that posture is.

18:56That goal of that posture is to focus our minds on God. And I know for myself, if I'm pacing or I'm rocking back and forth in rocking chair, I could focus on God much, much more than if I'm, you know, consciously trying to be still because being still is just so awkward for me. Like, even in this in this video call, you can notice I'm rotating back and forth a little bit on my chair here. And and so things like that, it's it's to understand the why. The why of posture is to really focus our mind on god. Well, if being still in your posture is not gonna focus you on god, it's not gonna be the best for an autistic person if they need if they're going to pray. I think also another another aspect is the challenge we have at the beginning because one of the challenges with with autism is what's called theory of mind.

19:45And so theory of mind is basically, I'm thinking what you're thinking at this moment. And so each of us makes kind of a theory in our head of what the other person is thinking. Right? So I look at you and you nod as we're talking here, and I think, oh, yes. Father Charles just understood what I said. But at the same time, we do a lot more than that. Subconsciously, most people do. And we, autistics, don't tend to do nearly as much subconsciously on that. And that's a challenge. That could really be a challenge at the beginning of prayer. What took any past kind of, I'm saying the our father or I'm saying the decade of the rosary to I'm actually communicating with God is you have the the theory of mind and the divine mind because what is God thinking about me?

20:31Right? What like, I know I I I was taught in in Sunday school, god loves me, but what does that mean? How does how does god express that? How is god showing that to me? Can I think of what is in god's mind in my own mind? Well, I think that that could be a real challenge in the beginning because that is harder than it is for our fellow human persons around here where we talk to, look at their face. We can see, okay. They're nodding. They're they're doing this. They're doing that because you don't have those same aspects with God. But at the same time, once you get over that, I think the fact that we don't have that allows us to have a heart to heart with God in a more direct way because other people will put that filter of the theory of mind between them and God because that filter is it is is a natural filter they have between them and a relationship within the other person.

21:23That filter is helpful usually in human relationships. It could be a challenge for us in human relationships that we don't really have that filter. But with God, it can be the opposite where not having that filter can actually allow us to communicate more directly with God. In in that sense, I don't need to express my words. I can what I'm thinking, and I know God knows what I'm thinking and things like that, and that could really be a way to go super deep in prayer. So, father Matthew, what about liturgical preferences with autistics? Do they tend to prefer, say, a Latin mass versus the Novus Ordo, or or does that a factor in at all with their prior life? I don't think it's really necessarily the Novus Ordo or the Latin mass.

22:03I think really what a lot of times is a very structured mass, which obviously can can sometimes towards a Latin mass, but also a mass that's Novus Ordo that's, you know, we do this, this, this, and not one that's kind of a, praise and worship, almost Pentecostal style, you know, Catholic, charismatic, no which good mass is just, like, I have never had any attraction to that personally. It's but it's very good in that sense for them. And so I think with our lives, we we do have that challenge in that we are sorry. We we have to have a very structured mass. It helps us out. The fact that we have that, we know the same things happening every week and whatever format that's in, whether it's the ordinary ordinary form or the extraordinary form, I think, is is a secondary question to one that's very structured.

23:01And then sometimes sensory issues, so whether it's a sensory issue with the incense or with the loud music or things like that can be a big challenge. And so a lot of times a lot of parishes well, a number of parishes have started doing sensory friendly masses where they turn down the volume and the lights or sets reverse choirs that basically turn a choir room into that space where it's less volume, less light, for one of the masses. And if and if that's not available, usually, what most will find most helpful is either, like, a Latin mass or those kind of 07:30AM Sunday masses that are that are very much, you know, limited music, you know, very structured that, for lack of better and and those type of masses because that's the kind of mass that really attracts us in our hearts in that sense.

23:50Yeah. So there are actually parishes now doing masses for with, I guess, you called it, sensory how'd you say that? Sensory friendly. So if you go to my website, I have a directory, that if people find other ones and tell me, I'll update it of masses in The US where they do where they do run a sensory friendly mass at that parish. Okay. What's your website? Frmatthewlc. So just like fathermatthewlcc.okay..com. Frmatthewlc.com. Okay. It's one of the top menu items, so it's not hard to find what's on the site. What do you think now? So more and more Catholics, I guess, are aware of this, need, and, it's great to hear that parishes and and priests are becoming more aware. Do you do you see how do you see that going right now?

24:42Is it a lot more needs to be done? Or what would you say is is it is a good trend? Or how would you evaluate the situation? I definitely there's a good trend. I would hope that at least every metro every major metro area is able to have a sensory friendly mask because I do know that a number of autistic people who just can't stand the sensory issues of ordinary masks, end up not going to mask because of it even though they want to. And and that could be an issue. I think that's probably the next step that most places could do in that. I do think also the ultimate goal is not just that we allow them to participate in that way, be thinking of 10 mass, but we want autistic people to really serve the church.

25:27And that's really how the goal we should have when we're bringing someone into the church, not just, oh, I attend mass, but also I serve the church in some capacity. I help build up Christ's kingdom. And I think that that is an aspect that we still have to work on a lot for autism in the church, but I think it's slowly coming along. So what would you say is autistic deeper praying? So a deeper prayer, if you go through kind of the classic three stages of somebody like a Tank Ray or a Gary Legrand, they talk about the purgative, the eliminative, and the unitive ways. And the purgative is just getting rid of moral sin. The the unitive is more of our our own effort and practicing virtue and doing doing regular prayer, regular mental prayer, and things like that.

26:15And then the unitive is really the gift of God of the deeper prayer. And I think for anyone, the deepest prayer is obviously that gift of God, that that kind of mystical union with God in prayer where it's almost like we're experiencing a short taste of heaven while still here on earth. And I think that's the deepest prayer that anybody can have. Now I think kind of the the level just before that is gonna be a little different for different people, both on the spectrum and not. I do know that, like I was saying before, how once we've kind of gotten over what I call the prayer the prayer hump in that sense where it's like where we kind of got over the struggle of seeing the divine mind, we can really understand deeply, and we can really go super deep in our prayer to really have that heart to heart communication with God where it's no longer so much words.

27:09It's kind of the movements of my heart directly communicate with God as as the level just before when God gives us a gift of the ultimate union with him, that mystical union. Are there any particular meditations or gospel scenes that you would recommend? I think each person is different in that regard. I in my book, I have 52 meditations, little short short two page little things, and each one has a few verses of of from the Bible, either the gospel or the Psalms or, I don't remember else, but I'm sure there's other whether it's Saint Paul or some Old Testament prophets or things. And I think that that is valuable in general. I think at different moments of our lives, we need different gospel scenes.

27:57Because I know for myself at different moments of my life, different gospel scenes have helped helped me out at different times, whether it's, you know, Jesus and Mary Magdalene in in in John 20 or whether it's, you know, the the trans the ascension in Matthew 28 or this discussion with Nicodemus in in John three or all the different passages we have, interacting with Jesus. So I I don't have any kind of particular passages for autistics. I think it varies throughout our lives just like it does for everybody else. So, father Matthew, would you say, is it possible for it to reflect autistic identity in Christ? And if so, how? The goal really in all of our lives is to become one with Christ in that union, to live Christ out in virtue and in union.

28:43And that's the goal of all Christian life. And I think in that sense, it's it's one of the things that people can have a sense of both with autism and with other conditions is kind of, oh, I have to overcome this to have my identity in Christ. But but autism is something that's part of who I am, so I can have that identity in Christ. I can live that per virtue, live that union with God in prayer while being autistic, not, oh, I get rid of the autism to get to there. Because I think with a lot of a lot of psychological conditions, there's kinda that temptation. Oh, I get rid of my OCD to get a union with god. But, no, if whatever your condition is, you have that me as I am, I come before god, I practice virtue, I choose the the good at all moments, and I live in that union with him.

29:33And so I think that that's really where we all find our identity in Christ is that virtue, that prayer, that living in him and through him. Yeah. You know, this god loves us as we are and meets us where we are. He wants to he wants to make us, more than anything, he wants our love, and he wants us to to feel his love experience and know that he loves us. And, you know, saint Saint Therese of Lisieux, you know, talks about that. Here I am, and I can't do anything about it, and he still loves me. You know? Oh, yeah. There's, doctor Paul Bitz here at DMU. He wrote a whole, academic paper analyzing the psychology of Saint Teresa of the zoo that's very interesting. I I I cited in in one of my grad studies, classes.

30:16So You've done quite a bit of research, on your book. And, of course, you have your PhD as well. So you're you're you're, you know, you're a very good researcher. What other kinds of resource are there other resources out there that deal with this issue? Are there you know? So because I know your book your book seems to be doing very well. It seems like it's it's it's it's a very needed resource. So has it been hard to find these kinds of resources, prayer, and just helping the autistic people understand the prayer life better and and that god loves them. Well, I think, to a certain extent, other resources can help out as well, like other prayer resources that are out there. I know for myself, I've I've used a whole bunch of other meditation prayer books in my life, and I found it very helpful.

31:05There are a few other, resources out there. Loyola Press has a kind of adaptive first communion first a reconciliation kit for kids who are autistic or have other, developmental delays. It's mainly for those with intellectual delays, so it's, it's making sure you understand the base of the sacrament even if you're not the most articulate kid at the for being a second or third grader. And then, Summer Kinnard, who's if you look at my book, she's the one quote on the back. She wrote, of such in the kingdom, a practical theology of disability. She's an orthodox woman. So, obviously, not not Catholic, but orthodoxy and Catholicism other than really the pope are pretty much have the same teaching.

31:47And, and she wrote a whole a whole book on that, which she she's autistic and some of her kids are, so that's really the emphasis emphasis of it even though it's disability in general. And I think it's probably the the second best book on the topic, out there. It has some practical things that I don't really get into as much about, you know, help me out as a mother with autistic children, how to help them to pray, how to help them to live live their own prayer life. I know in my book, I take her ideas for making a prayer corner and basically, you know, basically copy them. I note that icons and statues, not just icons when she says it, but that's, you know, that's a slight difference between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but not a huge difference.

32:32Others, so how can religion in general and Catholicism in particular, help those with autism overcome many of their struggles such as sensory overload, social awkwardness, that kind of stuff? Well, I think all the time for whatever our struggles are, if we have that relationship with Jesus, it helps us see it through any of our struggles, whatever they are, whether it's autism, whether it's, death in the family, whether it's PTSD, whether it's this or that, or whatever kind of struggles we have. And I think that that is the first way in that sense that we have that relationship with Jesus and we and also that we have that community because community is an essential part of the of our faith.

33:10You know, we are the body of Christ. We work together as a body. Right? And so the idea is that I might be the finger, but the rest of the body has helped me out as the finger, right, of, Saint Paul's image in in the letter to the Corinthians. Now with that, I think that there are certain specific things that could help out in that sense to to calm us or to help us to to focus in those times. I think, for example, a lot of times, a little short prayer, like a one line prayer, whether it's, whether it's something like, the Jesus prayer that's common in the Eastern church, Catholic and Orthodox, lord Jesus, son of living God, have mercy on me, a sinner, which a lot of these for monks will pray over and over again, like, hundreds or thousands of times a day.

33:55But even for my even for us on the on the spectrum, if we're going to to a moment where we're starting to have a struggle, a lot of time, it almost become like a little stem in our mind where it's kind of a repetition, like, over and over again. And that can really help us to to overcome that moment of challenge, whether it's a sensory overload or a social issue or anything like that. Now, father Matthew, you've, now you have quite an extensive following on Twitter. And you really you know, pope Francis talks about missionary disciples and, and how we should go to, quote, unquote, peripheries and so forth. And I think you've really, you're you're doing that in in many ways, and it's not that you you're actually it's not just ministry and trying to help people with autism, but really the church in general.

34:42And and you're to be congratulated and commended for that with the different, articles you write and the message you put out. But could you tell since you've written your book, have you gotten feedback from people who are or, you know, what's God been doing with that? Like, have there been some some people who've contacted you and say, hey, you know, how can we help and how can we be better disciples as well? Because it doesn't like, there's an area that needs attention. Oh, definitely. I'm getting I've gotten a number of different contacts from individuals or vocation directors about people entering religious life for the priesthood who are on the spectrum. I know, there was last last year, there was a a priest ordained who was artistic who I talked to.

35:28I'm not going to give his name because he has not announced it publicly. And and so I think that that is a those type of things have been something that since I've been public about being autistic, I've gotten a number of those both before and after the book. From the book, I've gotten a a whole a whole number of people who really said that really helped them to understand prayer, to really go deeper in prayer and things like that. One of the things I know about the peripheries is so after I was diagnosed before I was public about it, I was in class with doctor Ed Peters, who's a relatively well known canon lawyer in The States. Mhmm. And we were go and I had a class with him in my my graduate studies on I think it's book two.

36:09You're the canon lawyer, father Charlie. You can tell me what's wrong. But on the teaching office of the church, that was the class. And he noted this idea of going to the mission and to peripheries in one of the classes, and he noted he has a deaf son. And so he he is the one who does the interpretation for mass. Like, he'll be up there at the front beside doing all the the ASL, the sign language, so that his son and so other deaf people in the area can attend mass and understand what the priest is saying and things like and what the readings are and such. And he he noted how things like that are the peripheries as well. And I think in a way, autism is like that too because we have a different way of communicating than ordinary people.

36:51It's not as different as somebody who's deaf because they're obviously they can't they don't speak. They use their hands. But for us, just the way we understand language, the way we're interpreted, we are going to have that different way of communicating. And so reaching out to autistic people is reaching out to the peripheries, I think. So, father, I was wondering about you mentioned of being more conscious of the way that you relate to other people in a way that for most people that don't have autism, they sort of do it subconsciously. I wonder, though, for those people who have autism that really work at consciously consciously, building relationships with other with other people and versus those autistic persons that don't do that, that really just sort of allow their autistic tendencies to manifest themselves throughout their lives.

37:37Is it the case that for those that really work at it, it could become a second nature, and so it doesn't appear as if the person, in fact, has autism, those that actually work at it? Well, yes. I think that there can be a degree of working at it. I think that there's a few things to think about with that. First of all, is that a conscious process is more exhausting than a subconscious process, and so there is a lot of a lot of adult diagnosed autistics basically burned out from all the effort they had to do there, and that's when they started discovering the diagnosis if you read if you read the stories of that online and things. And so I think that there is there is something you can do to mitigate it externally, and it's what's called masking in the sense that I'm thinking that I'm not autistic.

38:21And, obviously, for certain situations, I go to a social event, you know, at a intellectual conference for for theology where I'm teaching or something. There's certain parts that where I'm probably gonna do that. But if I have to do that eight hours a day, five days a week, I'm gonna be exhausted. And and that and that's the thing to think about at the first part. The second point is that autism is often comorbid with intellectual delay or intellectual disability. And with that, those people have a lot more challenges, and I think we need to accept them more for who they are. I, myself, obviously, being university professor, doctoral degree, all those things, I have a very strong intellectual aspect, and I can kind of supplement my my not so great social skills with that above average intellectual capacity there.

39:19Whereas a lot of autistics don't have that to supplement their social skills with, and so we can't expect that from them. So I think it just varies a lot, and it varies a lot person to person exactly how much they struggle with different aspects of being autistic. So I try and be charitable in all people and just assume that everyone is doing their best they can and also realize that a lot of these things can be very exhausting for autistic people even if they can fake it to a certain extent. So Matthew is often referred to as the autistic disciple. How is his path distinct, different, and special from the other disciples? So you note that Matthew as the apostle who was autistic. I think that's really come from the chosen, which is one of the most popular TV series in recent years.

40:08Basically shows the apostles as the chosen ones. And I think it's been great for the awareness of autism, among Christians especially because tons and tons of Christians have been watching that show. I don't know if Matthew is autistic. I think it's a perfectly fine way for the the the producers or editors or writers or whatever to put one of the apostles autistic because as we noted beforehand, it's about two percent. So if one of the 12 apostles was autistic, it's not outside the realm of possibility. And I think his way of living through that that autism is helpful to show it in the sense that he's showing somebody who's has a reasonably respectable life, who lives a good life before he's called by Jesus, and then lives as an apostle of Jesus afterwards.

40:54And I think that, in a way, is a model for a lot of autistic Christians on how to live an autistic Christian life. So, by the way, I highly recommend our audience to check out your book, especially if they know someone, a loved one. God loves the autistic mind. But my my final question would be, you know, what would you say so So we have here at Divine Mercy University our our students and and especially our students who are preparing to be therapists or counselors or helping people in other other helping professions. What what would you want them to know about because they'll likely run into autistic people in different ways. And and and so the whole idea of faith and was there is there something you'd like to tell them?

41:45I think one of the things that those who are psychologists or teachers or parents, can really benefit from in a situation like this is to try and try and don't try and just deal with what you see externally, but try and understand internally what's going on with the autistic person because oftentimes, finding out something internal can help resolve it. Like, oh, my my kid just my kid starts screaming when we go outside. Okay. Well, maybe the sun's too bright for him. And so, like, try buying him a pair of sunglasses and see if he can go outside with, you know, a pair of dark sunglasses on because it's not a huge difficulty with life if every time your kid goes outside, he has to wear sunglasses.

42:27That's nobody's that that's a little bit of an adaptation for life, but it's not a huge challenge in that sense. He'll be cool. Yeah. He'll be cool. I'm I know. I'm using this as an example because it's something how sometimes we don't even realize it's just a small thing like that. Mhmm. Like, a a lot of times you try and deal a lot of the books try and deal with how to resolve this issue, but a lot of times you look at, okay, why is what's causing this issue? Mhmm. Then you're much able to much better able to really help the person out to flourish and not just stop that individual behavior because the if that kid is able to wear sunglasses, all of a sudden, it's not just, oh, I have to keep this kid inside or things like that.

43:07It's like, okay. I need to you know, the kid needs to as they well, do they need to carry the sunglass around all of the time? Yeah. Don't make everything a big problem. It could be simple solutions and practical solutions Yeah. For some of the the reactions that you you deal with. Well yeah. And the practical solutions often are understanding what is what is going on with that person's mind. Like, I know that when I was in elementary school, one of my teachers was kinda disappointed in me because I didn't really care for all the fiction books. I want to read I want to read the books about dinosaurs, the books about, like, pirate ships, you know, the the the how it works books where, you know, they have the cutouts of all the the skyscrapers or the or the, or the tanks or stuff like that.

43:50And and I would read tons of those books, but then they're like, you know, read this fiction book about something, and it had no interest to me. Now now other teachers at the same school would be like, okay. This kid, he's reading. He's reading at his level. He just doesn't like this type of book, and they they were not as much of an issue with it. But things like that to understand, okay. I'm not getting a lot of the emotional aspect of those fictional books. And, sure, it might be good for me to read some of them to help me with that aspect. But at the same time, if your goal as an English teacher is, hey. You want to read at grade level, or above grade level, and he's reading you know, he likes to read books about, you know, the history or things that's those are perfectly valid books to read.

44:36Great. Well, thank you father Matthew so much for coming on with us. And, the book again is God Loves the Autistic Mind. I think you can get that online. Is it Amazon? What are the ways you get it? Amazon, the Pauline Bookstore are the main two places you can get it. It's on almost all the main ones if you want. If you have, like, one of those nukes or koboos or whatever other kind of electronic versions they have. Okay. And then your your website is fathermatthewlc.com? Yeah. Frmatthewlc.com or frmatthewlc on any social media. Okay. That's great. Well, thank you. It's been a real blessing and and very informative, to talk with you today, father Matthews. Thank you very much. And Bradley, you did a great job as our guest cohost, so thank you very much.

45:21Thank you for having me, father. I really appreciate it. And father and father Matthew, it was wonderful to talk to you as well. God bless you, Bradley. Thank you.