PsyD Webinar with Chris Kraft

0:06Welcome to the PsyD webinar. I'm Bradley Cypher, the PsyD admissions advisor here at Divine Mercy University. And today, I'm delighted to be joined by second year doctoral student, Chris Craft. Format for today's webinar as usual, is I'll begin by interviewing Chris before launching into, a slideshow about the the nature of the school and its major major elements of the docco program. And then I'll finish with some q and a. So we will hold the q and a session to the end. So as we move through the conversation, please lodge your questions in the in the chat box. Also in the chat box, you will see my Calendly link, my email address. So I love hearing from students, giving them more information about our doctoral program, and showing, how, you know, how I can, be of service is is important there.

0:57So, please, get in touch with me through my Calendly or through email. Okay. Welcome, Chris. Thank you, Bradley. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Good to have you. So, how did you become interested in clinical psychology just in the first place in the most general sense? Yeah. So, let's see. I was I was thinking about this question and where to where to go back to, where to start. I, I'll I'll start with my undergraduate years. I I went to the University of Mary in Bismarck, North Dakota, and I went there, I think, with sort of a hodgepodge idea of things I could do. So I was pre accepted to the physical therapy program. I was working towards, I was thinking maybe health care administration. I had biology premed.

1:46So I had a few different, let's just say, fires going. Yeah. And I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do, but I was thinking maybe maybe I could become a doctor and then run a hospital. And I think the whole idea behind what I was thinking was I just wanna help people. I just wanna help as many people as I could. Right. Now when I was there, I also played football, and my now wife, was going there as well. And I think her going there was probably the biggest reason that brought me to the University of Mary. Nice. But but the, but also a big part of it as well was just an opportunity to grow in my faith. Mhmm. So there was a lot of different things that brought me to the University of Mary.

2:30And while I was studying there and notice I haven't said psychology yet. While I was studying there, I took a theology course that I think is required of all students there, and it really just the theology course rocked my world. It really was, sort of a a a one of one big movement just interiorly for me to be transformed on a spiritual front, which I think awakened my eyes a bit to what trajectory am I on. And so as I begin to ask that question, I realized, you know, the the health care administration, the biology premed, the PT, it wasn't a fit for me that seemed right. And so I started to look at my my gifts and even just my my natural conversations that I was having with people. And I thought, you know, we really need to do something with my life that integrated sort of this natural role that I've seen myself in with relationships with people, which is more of a counselor, sort of just support someone who's being present and listening with the theology aspect that I was also falling in love with.

3:37And so I switched my degree to psychology and theology. And during that time as well, I met, a fellow by the name of doctor James Link back in the Bismarck diocese who had done just a lot of wonderful work for the diocese using psychology and theology, really integrating the two, at the service of the church, and I just found that really attractive. So I switched my major, as I said, and, and I knew I I would need to do, studies beyond undergraduate after that. So I began to look and say, where where can I continue this mission of theology, psychology, you know, at the service of the church? And, DMU just came to the fore as one of the best places that I could find, where I could continue that.

4:29So I think I maybe jumped ahead a little bit there, but, that's sort of the underpinnings for me that brought me to psychology and the Divine Mercy University. Yeah. Very good. Thank you for that. What was the what was this theology class exactly? It was it was called search search for God, which is a important search that we're all on. Yeah. I think in that, I heard an invitation to follow him more more authentically with my life. Also, the University of Mary was, FOCUS on campus. And so FOCUS had this really, I think, just beautiful view on what relationships are for and the sort of authentic, person to person interaction, and I just found a lot of life from that sort of way of relating to people.

5:22That's been interesting now fast forward to looking at, okay, as a psychologist and as a clinician, these relationships are different than friendships. Yeah. These relationships are are different, but, there's still that sense of being totally present of being person to person, that has been really, I would say, a joy of get getting to know more and more. That's that's such a great story. I love that. I mean, especially, you know, as one that's that's studied a lot of theology myself. I mean, that's such a that's such a wonderful it's almost like it seems like, you know, because I I think a lot of it maybe one of the biggest misconceptions, right, or maybe the historically, the tension between you know, theology and and psychology.

6:09I mean, that story just kind of illustrates that that they they go together. Right? You know, they that that that one, the the truth about God and the human person, ought to lead us to our own vocations and and certainly, indeed, in your own case, a vocation to heal, to to heal others, emotionally, you know, and and wherever whatever dire straits they often find themselves. That's really beautiful. It was I was just gonna add it. It was it it was hard for me to imagine how could I do counseling, or how could I do psychology without theology without the philosophy of the person's integrated and as a sort of foundation and just sort of interwoven throughout. I I couldn't really imagine what how would you do that in a way that would be authentic?

6:56Now I I've started to see that there's there's really good and important work that people are doing, you know, outside of a religious perspective or outside of an underpinning of who the human person is from a theological perspective. But for me, it was like, but how do you do it to the fullest degree of what's most helpful for people unless you have that, understanding the person that's really rooted in the truth of who people are. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like there would be something crucially missing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. I interrupted you. I don't know if you're gonna ask another question. No. No. The the, you you you actually, in some ways, you already anticipated my next question, which is about, why you went ahead with Divine Mercy.

7:41Can you say a bit about that? Sure. Yeah. So, Yeah. I I think what I was looking at was, okay, what's what's close to home? What's not too close to home? Being married. And and now my wife and I have an 18 old, raising a family. And, and so I'm like, well, what's what's practical? What's what's doable? Yeah. Yeah. How are we gonna make this work? And, I think on the first thought of of realizing that Divine Mercy University was, like it seemed like the place to go to of, like, if I wanna do I wanna learn about psychology, and I wanna practice from a integrated theology, and I don't wanna unlearn things or add it on super extra, but for it all to be integrated. It seemed like just clear that DMU was the place to go, and we were not excited that it was 1,500 miles away from Bismarck, North Dakota.

8:44Yeah. Yeah. But but it's it's, you know, along the way, it's been, I think, something that the Lord has just opened doors to us to to to take steps into. And as we take steps further, he opens the doors and invites us further. And, and it's definitely challenging to be away from family. That's for sure. I have to give a shout out to my mom. I think I think my mom, Jean, is is watching right now. And it's challenging to be far away from family, but it's it's all understood within the mission of, you know, what does it mean for me to be, a married man and for me to be a a father of a beautifully little girl? And what does it mean for me to participate in the the mission that the Lord has set out for me?

9:33And all those things pointed me towards, DMU. And so it's, yeah, it's been it's been a leap. It's been challenging. It's been, yeah, challenging is almost an understatement. I mean, it's it's it's been form formative, you know, towards, you know, both vocationally and as well as vocationally, you know, with my family at home and career wise forward. But it it it seemed to be a good fit, and now it's been it's been a journey to see how that has been playing out in my life. Yeah. I I remember when you came here and and, you know, people were joking around. Like, who who's the person that came furthest away? And it was Chris, you know, by far. Like, it wasn't even close. Actually actually, we have a an Australian Dominican priest in our cohort.

10:22So he's Oh, right. Right. I I I mean, from amongst the Americans, you are Yes. By far, like, within the, yeah, within the continent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. So right. Thank you for that correction. Yeah. That's that's fair. In fact, we have it's funny Australians. We just had another Australian join us, this year. First point the '23 start. Sarah. Anyway, so tell me more about, you know, your own clinical and academic interest within psychology. I mean, where do you see yourself when you finish here and when you go off and you have an internship? Where do you where do you, what does that look like in to you? Yeah. I think a a major prerogative of mine is how can I take all that I'm learning here at Divine Mercy University, the foundation of psychology integrated with, Catholicism and philosophy?

11:19How how can I take this and use it at the service of the church? So that's that's a that's a major interest of mine. So, I would say that, where I see myself after graduating here is going back to my home state of North Dakota and working with the diocese of Bismarck and, also at in the diocese of Bismarck's University of Mary and and, being put to work for the service of the church. So in some regards, what that has looked like includes things like evaluations, assessments for seminarians and those who are interested in the religious life, applicants. It it looks like assessing those who are interested in becoming part of the diaconate community, various teaching opportunities potentially in and throughout the diocese.

12:15And then another big part of it as well is just strengthening marriages. So, that's actually a piece of what my dissertation is going to be. Thankfully, we've just kind of, I think, moving towards finalizing my plan for the dissertation. Mhmm. I still work in progress, but, where I'll be looking at a pre marriage program in town. And when I say in town, I mean here, in DC. And they're they're going through the process of revamping the the program. And so my my dissertation is gonna help take a snapshot of, how effective is this program and how can we improve it for the sake of couples, as they get ready to to launch in a marriage. So those those would be some, I guess, some general interests of mine.

13:03And the assessment piece, which, already in our program, I'm second year at second year here. We're starting to look at different assessment measures, personality assessment measures, how to utilize those, where they come from, how to how to interpret them, which will definitely be something I'll be been doing, and then as well as, the family and marriage piece as well. So we've gotten some pieces of that from, like, the the child perspective, child centered play therapy, also some work with group filial therapy or disability therapy in general, working with parents and their children. And then, I think also, I just I think I just have an interest as well working with with people and being present to them as I kinda spoke about earlier.

13:55So those are that's kind of a a splattering a bit there. But, I think the the big interest is for mine is is saying, okay. What what what can I do to take this and then serve the church with it? And so that kind of captures it to some degree. Yeah. It's beautifully said. I I love this. I especially the your dissertation idea is fascinating to me because it's I like how practical it is. Right? It sounds like one of these things that I could have, like, very immediate and proximate application. I mean, to kind of, like, reevaluate what is what is sort of currently the sort of typical, schematic for for preparing people for information. How can that be improved? How can that be reevaluated, etcetera?

14:39And then also, like, this you know, the it's it sounds, though, that your you know, the personality, the the seminary and evaluations, that they all they all kind of, in a way, are related to each other because they kind of, you know, is speaking to different elements of the human person. What are some of your favorite, personality tests? Personality tests? Mhmm. Well, I'll I'll speak a little bit about the MMPI. So we've we've, walked through the MMPI two, and then the three is now out. So we'll be walking through that, I think, hopefully, at an externship in the future. But I think one thing I found about it is super interesting how much you can learn, about a person from from a test of that nature.

15:26I know I can't say too much about it for the sake of, what's the word, protecting sort of the integrity of the test. But I've been I've been kind of just amazed by how much research is behind the test and then all that you can glean about the person from the test. Now, of course, you can't take one single test and say, this person has a certain disorder or this person is, has this sort of, cluster of things going on for them. You have to use other pieces of data and evidence as well. But, I think I've been really fascinated by the MMPI to see how it's how much you can learn about someone using it. It'll be really interesting in the spring to also learn about the Rorschach and sort of compare and contrast the differences of the tests and how they're utilized.

16:15That's that's a that's a bit of a snapshot there about some of the tests I enjoy. There's it's it's amazing how much there is to learn about these tests too. You know, we spend, like, a number of we've spent a number of weeks just talking about one test, the MMPI, trying to learn it and interpret it and write an assessment about it. But to me, it helps to me, it helps, think of it in light of the understanding of the human person, how each person's a gift, and each person is made a dignity made made with dignity and image of God, that you would take so much time even just with one measure to help understand what's going on for a person that, like, you would you would really slow things down to really figure out what's what's the actual experience of the person.

17:00To me, I think it's it's reflective of the mission of seeing each person with dignity, that you would take that sort of time to really evaluate what's going on and then compare it to other things that you have access to yourself as well. Yeah. But but so is the MMPI, does that include the, like, the openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, neuroticism schematic, or is that something something different? That's something different. Okay. That's that that was OCEAN. That's what? Well, the the acronym there is OCEAN. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, again, but it sounds like they're they're different tests then. Yeah. Yeah. But, we haven't gone over much with what you've just shared, with the personality measures of the ocean.

17:47But I think what you're referring to is more of a, of a theory of how personalities cluster together. The MMPI has, some clinical skills that are part of it as well. So it also so you get, both a personality piece in there, but also a diagnostic picture of the person as well. Okay. So if that kinda makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That's that's that's super helpful and interesting. Okay. Now, what would you say I mean, given your time here so far, what would be maybe some of the most enjoyable and rewarding parts of the DMU? And maybe, by contrast, what would be some of the most challenging elements of the program so far? Okay. Let's see. Which one should I start with? Either. Is this is this projective?

18:39This is projective? To see which one I start with is projective? No. Say some of the most enjoyable things have been things like just getting to know the people that are here and being edified by the sort of people that are here. I mean, there's just some really wonderful people that are trying to, you know, both be excellent clinicians, excellent in the psychology world, and also excellent just as human people in practicing their faith. I think being around people like that is just it's it's an it's an inspiring thing to be a part of, and it's a it's really a joyful thing to be a part of. So and that goes for both professors and also other students that are here as well. So I think getting to know other people has been really a gift.

19:29I'd say it's along the challenging things for me have has had to do with balancing, prioritizing, and just making it work, family life, and, academic rigor. It's an intense program. There's lots of reading. There's lots to learn. Clinical works ramping up. There's lots of things to write for dissertations and things like that. And I think, that coupled with got a little one at home, needs her diaper changed. She needs her dad time. Yeah. And, my wife's working full time as a physical therapist here in town as well. Mhmm. So I think just balancing, okay, how do I be happy with just being the best that I can be in this moment of being the good enough dad, the good enough husband, the good enough student here at DMU?

20:19Just there's limited time. There's limited resources. How do I balance it all and just make it work? So I think that's been probably the one of the most challenging pieces is, okay. How do how do I do this? Thankfully, there's others in my cohort and others who have gone before me that have done it as well. And, I think each of us is kind of on our unique on our own path as well. So you kinda figure out, like, what works for your family. And so, yeah, that's been probably more challenging piece, but, it it really helps for me just knowing that this is where the Lord's called me. You know? So if this is where the Lord's called me, then he's gonna he's gonna make the path clear. And those things that are challenging are gonna be important pieces of my own formation.

21:03And so just keeping that in the forefront of my mind as things are challenging or I feel overwhelmed or stressed with various things, of just recognizing who's called me here and who's sustaining me at this time. Yeah. It sounds like this is a theme that you you're coming back to again and again, this business of vocation. Right? And and and I it's would you say and it sounds like, you're you have a lot of peace with this. Right? I think despite the challenges of the program and then being married and having a a very young child and the demands, the rigors of this of this program, it sounds, though, that, you know, in spite of all of that, you're you have a deep sense of, like, contentment that this is something that God has has brought you to, and feel sort of see you through to the end.

21:49Is that fair? Oh, yeah. That's fair. Yeah. And it it helps it helps to to know that, and I guess to just trust. You know, this is this is his plan for me, and this is how it's this is being unfolded as we go and, that the Lord is bringing us to where he wants us to be and having to trust in that is is huge. And then also just enjoying the process along the way. You know what I mean? Northern Virginia is actually a really beautiful place to live. There's Yeah. The the the trees are I mean, you can't really see a sunset around here, but the trees are beautiful. The the fall is, like, elongated. You have some leaves that have already changed and lost and some that are already still green. I mean, I'm not really used to that.

22:36I'm also used to snow hitting the ground here soon and staying until, I don't know, April. Right. Right. So, I mean, enjoying the process along the way as well, you know, even as things kind of are challenging here and there and just, you know, recognizing the gift that we have in front of us and just cherishing it. Yeah. Well said. Beautiful. Okay. So reasons for wanting to pursue, a doctorate in psychology are varied. But what might you say would be some, maybe on the one end, some very good reasons to pursue doctoral studies and maybe some not so good reasons or maybe even some problematic reasons for wanting to motivations for wanting to, pursue the society? That's a good question. I'll start with I'll start with one with the maybe not so good reason.

23:27And I think this one's particularly relevant to those who, you know, maybe wanna serve the church with their work. We're not you're not trying to become a psychologist to become rich. Yeah. That's one thing just to keep in mind. Yeah. Beautiful reasons, I think, include, you know, if you have identified within yourself a vocation to to heal, to sit with people, to be present with people, and you see this as an active step in in carrying out that vocation. So bringing it back to the vocation piece. Now there's a lot of factors that come into that. Other other reasons for myself, I was really interested in sort of the latitude as a psychologist that I I knew I would have. So the need for people with this degree and with this formation and training is it's real.

24:28There's there's a need there's a need for, well trained clinical psychologists who understand who the human person is and have have an appreciation for how God made the human person to flourish. There's a need for that. And I think answering that need for me was a really important reason. But also knowing that just career wise, you'll have a lot of opportunities to to teach, to assess, to counsel. I'm sure I'm missing others to supervise. There's a lot of opportunities within the field of psychology that, would sustain a good career. And for me, going back to vocation, that was important for me of how do I provide for my family? Yeah. How do I how do I raise this family in in in this in this world?

25:25And so having having a having a particular latitude was exciting for me. But then also, you know, what exactly would you be doing as a clinical psychologist? That needs to be something that's attractive to someone as well. You know, like, if you, you know, can you see yourself assessing, doing assessments and carrying out these personality, measures and writing up reports and sitting with people in in their brokenness and with the various structures that they have going on in their life and being empathic and being willing to listen and and, being present in that way to people. I think those are some important things to think about. You know, if if you if if you can visualize and see, like, what what sort of things could I do as a psychologist, and are those attractive to me?

26:14Do those feel like they're fulfilling something within me that I was made for? I think those are good reasons, to to pursue the degree. Yeah. Oh, excellent. Okay. Now, clearly, there's a great deal of overlap between counseling and psychology, because for a lot of people, it can be not always obvious the the the difference. Right? I mean, because it it seems like they do a lot of the same things, talk therapy, conducting psychotherapy, these kinds of things. For people out there that are maybe listening, and are maybe on the fence between the two, going to counseling or going to Saudi route, what advice might you offer, such a person? This is a good question. It's a question I asked myself too, because I had I had kind of come back and forth between the masters a master's in counseling or a doctorate in clinical psychology.

27:12There's also doctorates in counseling psychology. There's PhD programs. This is a PsyD program. So these are a lot of important questions to kinda ask yourself, like, what do all those things mean? I know some people answer and say, well, a lot of what accounts and psychologists and the clinical psychologists do in practice are actually quite similar. And I think there's there's there's truth to that. There's definitely truth to that. I think one of the emphasis towards the clinical psychology doctorate is the diagnosis piece of being able to assess, you know, what symptoms are going on for a person and what what how do these symptoms map on to some sort of diagnostic criteria? And then as the clinical psychologist being able to figure out what's going on for the person and diagnosing in that regard so as to help them work through that or embrace it in their life.

28:15So I think that that to me is a major difference of the clinical psychology, piece of using the formation for the sake of the diagnostic picture of the person, before you, which, isn't necessarily a component of of counseling. But there is some there is definitely overlap in the carrying out of therapeutic techniques to work towards treatment goals that I think are a piece of both clinical psychology as well as counseling. Okay. So, to your mind, I mean, what have been maybe two or three of the most formative ideas that you've learned so far in our doctoral program that have really been impactful for you, both in terms of the way that you see the world, you see the human person, and what going forward as they as they, seem to be, psychologist and clinician, what would be most sort of, like, influential upon you, in your professional career?

29:29Oh, loaded question, Bradley. Two things that are coming to my mind. One one has to do with the ordering that having a Catholic perspective has on truth, Mhmm. And the other one has to do with the role of empathy in therapy. So, I'll start with the latter. So empathy, we've we talked we talked a lot about empathy and what empathy is, and a lot of it has to do with, I think, helping people unlock within themselves their capacity for emotion and, becoming okay with experiencing emotion and understanding their the proper roles of emotion. But to get more specific at your point, I think, for me, what I'm learning about empathy is it has to do with this alignment with the therapist and the client.

30:34And this alignment is sort of this emotional attunement where you're, where you're present to the person, in their own experience. And it can be that that attunement has a profound impact on the person and helping them feel known, helping them feel loved, helping them feel understood, and helping them get to a place where they can say, what do I need to do to grow, to flourish, to change? This this empathy empathy plays a really important part in aligning, the therapist with the client so that they can work together towards their goals. So we've talked about that a lot, and I think for me, taking that forward is, you know, for me, what helped bring me to the program was being present with people.

31:24And now I'm learning what empathy how empathy plays a role in that and just how important it is for people and how to practice it. And I'll be honest, Bradley. It's not just something that happens with your client, but it's something that happens outside of your time as a as a PsyD student. I mean, it it's something that I see impacting my marriage. How can I be more empathic with with my wife and love her better and other family members as well? So, there's a lot you could say about empathy, but I think for me, I'm just kinda recognizing just the importance that it is and how to practice it and how much positive influence that brings about. And then the other the other piece, that I was talking about was cap an a Catholic understanding and how that prioritizes truth.

32:13And I think what I'm realizing there is what I'm realizing there is that all truth belongs to God, and there's different modalities within the psychology realm, that come at the question, the presenting problem, the distress of a person from different angles, and they can all be helpful in different situations and settings. And these truths that are brought about by these different theories and these different modalities are all good. And I think what the one thread I'm seeing throughout with this the Catholic Christian meta model view of the human person is that these truths belong to God and that we shouldn't be afraid of these different modalities, but we should learn to integrate them and sort of, you know, become a clinician that has a lot of different skills within our skill set and not just bound ourselves to this modality or this theory, but to see them all as something within god's design of the person.

33:22Now I know you can't just say it as a blanket statement. There's, you know, things here and there that need to be refuted within different theories. But I think just sort of generally speaking, that we shouldn't be afraid to go to those places to learn, how they can be helpful for people so long we have a understanding of of how all truth belongs to God and let our Catholic vision, the person, inform things that are, contrary to those truths within those theories. So I think those are two two major pieces for me. Hopefully, I've captured them well in my bit of time trying to explain them. Yeah. That was great. I I so to that latter point about truth and and and and, God, I mean, like, it seems that, like, on the one hand, like, the universality of, you know, Catholic being the Greek for universal, you know, and and also the sort of related to that is the meta model, mesa, the Greek from, like, beyonds.

34:20So the idea that, you know, the meta model is able to incorporate that that the truth of God is is so vast, that it can incorporate all that is true in human wisdom, and certainly to include all of the myriad schools of psychology, psychotherapy, and things like this. So be able to incorporate and but also to judge them. Is that fair? You know, to kind of like to, you know, that because surely, I mean, not every not every theory is as, aligns with the way that the church understands the human person. Is that fair? I can't I can't think of any, like, specific examples just off my head, but, yeah, I would say judge or maybe inform or correct Yeah. Those theories. Yeah. Certainly. And I think some some people are writing right dissertations.

35:13That that right there, topic for dissertation. Yeah. So keep keep that in mind. If you're interested in DMU and you want a dissertation idea, if you're like, hey. How does how does this theory in Catholicism, how do they work? That's a great dissertation idea. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. This is good. So we're the future DMU, doctoral students will hopefully remember this conversation. You the okay. And then the other thing you mentioned, you know, empathy, and and you might think I'm being persnickety when I ask this. Do you guys talk about or distinguish between sympathy and empathy? I remember I remember sort of a brief passing of the of the conversation. And I don't know if I'm exactly going back to what was taught there or just how I internalized it.

36:07But it seems it seems to me that sympathy more so puts two people apart from each other, where, like, you're kinda looking at someone sort of at a from a distant sort of way almost, whereas empathy is more so a a coming alongside another person. Mhmm. And I think that difference is actually really important. You know? Like Mhmm. If someone feels that you can sort of relate to them and, but they're kinda keeping their distance from you, it's it's a different there there's there's a difference there than if someone who's coming alongside you and and almost experiencing with you. And there's there's so much more of a deep understanding that's being shared Yeah. Yes. I think you're so it sounds like what's going on here is, like, again, on the one hand, you can have a situation where, you might understand, like, what the other person is saying, right, and sort of have a cognitive, like, a, you know, grasp of what that what that is.

37:05But, you know, you're not necessarily agreeing with, right, what's what's going on versus like, in another situation, you it's not just that you see what the other person's experiencing and you understand it, you know, intellectually, but you're kind of on their side. You are accompanying them. You're you're their advocates. And and, you know, like, when we think of, you know, compassion, that seems almost like compassion in a way. It's like you are to suffer with compassion, to suffer with that person to kind of, like, take on that person's burden to accompany them and and to sort of lead them to flourishing. So, yeah, I think that sounds like there's something definitely, going on there. Okay.

37:45Let's see what happened we talked to here. Yeah. So the last the last question I had, you know, was simply to revisit your own experience of being a married person and raising a family here at Divine Mercy. Is there anything else that maybe you wanted to add to that that you haven't yet, that might be helpful for a lot of people that are, contemplating coming here? Maybe they're they're about to become married. They are married. They, maybe wanna have children in the near future, but they also want to get their doctorate. What might you say to, that lot of people? I would say, God bless you for for considering this vocation along with your other vocation. And in many ways, I've found my vocation of being a husband and father prioritizing my role as a psychologist my role as an aspiring psychologist, I should say.

38:45And I also find myself to be at a major advantage having a wonderful wife who is here to support me, and I'm here to support her and having a a wonderful daughter to to spend time with. And I think I'm I'm really grateful that I'm I'm not I'm not putting life on pause. Yeah. So it's you know, life with my wife and with my my daughter continue, and life as a cycle as a as a PsyD student continues. And it's it is really challenging, but it's also life giving. And I think one thing my wife and I really learned or learning there is how to rely more more heavily on one another, how to how to how to pray more authentically as a family, how to, I think, just just entrust what we're doing and who we are to the Lord in this process.

39:50And I think, you know, you know, cling to one another has been something that's really come back to us. And I think we'll look back on this time and we'll say, wow. That was challenging. But that was also really good for us. That was really good for our marriage, and that was really good for our relationships with our with our children. So, yeah, I would I would say, it's definitely a process of discernment, and there's a lot of factors that come into it. I mean, there's a lot of practicals just in being a husband and, and trying to figure out, you know, how we're gonna make sure that, you know, the budget works, both in the short term and the long term. So there's a lot that comes into comes into play with it.

40:34But, I think for people to know that it's it's been done and it's being done and it's doable, and you really you really lean into the sacrament of marriage and cling to one another. And, and it's it's it's a good thing it's a good thing for one another and hopefully for those that I'll, encounter through my work as a psychologist, god willing. Yeah. Yeah. It it you know, it sounds like an adventure. Right? And and one that that you'll look back like you were saying, you know, maybe ten, twenty, thirty years from now, and you'll you'll remember it hopefully fondly. It's like, look at what we did. Look at what we accomplished together. Yeah. That's view that's beautiful. Okay. Very good. Let's take a look at the chat box.

41:16Let's see if there's anything that people have asked, so we can attend to that real quickly. Someone's asking about how do I do classes online? How long is this is this session? Okay. So, yeah, this is not an online program. This is an in person one. And I'm actually gonna talk more about that here in a minute when I get into the, slideshow. So, with that then, let me upload the slideshow, and we can get into it. So bear with me. Alright. So, folks, as I go through this, I'm I'm gonna ask Chris, to collaborate a little bit with me. As I go through, I'll be asking him questions periodically and just asking him to chime in, given his own experience here at Divine Mercy. So without further ado, the overview of our doctoral program.

42:14So Divine Mercy University is a Catholic graduate school of psychology. It was founded in 1999 as Institute of the Psychological Sciences. Dedicated scientific study of psychology with a Catholic Christian understanding the person. They're teaching and learning both knowledge and critical skills. Its expansion from IPS to DMU expanded in 2016 to facilitate growth and add a counseling program at the graduate level. So what this means is we transferred the name from Institute of Psychological Sciences to Divine Mercy back in 2016 to facilitate our own kind of expansion. So we have one major university with two distinct schools, the school of counseling, which offers a master's in counseling, which is achieved with an online program.

42:54And then the Institute of Psychological Sciences, has our residential doctorate, which is what we're talking about today. And, again, this is not an online. This is an in person, on-site on campus program. And then the master of science in psychology is an entire the kind of the, like, the opposite of the census entirely, online, and not all in person. Okay. Okay. Our mission, providing students with an effective academic and educational environment that supports integration of the psychological sciences and a Catholic Christian understanding of the person. Also, we assist students intellectually and professionally as they prepare themselves to respond to the vocations, mental health professionals.

43:31So this this word that that continues to arise in our conversation with Chris, you know, the sense of vocation to to become a healer in science and faith, is that's what we do here. Now, you know, also as, Chris have heard us do earlier, you know, the DC area is truly a wonderful place to be. I mean, location could hardly be better. We're just outside of the nation capital, so there's lots of if you enjoy city life, that's certainly an offer to the East. Cultural, artistic opportunities abound. But if you're more of the outdoorsy type and you enjoy camping, canoeing, you know, whatever it may be, water rafting, vineyards, so that's also on offer. So it's really, hard hard to do better in terms of location, and accommodating different people.

44:20Alright. So we have a series of institutional accreditations. So we're firstly, we're institutionally accredited by SACS, the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, which is recognized as an accreditation agency by the Department of Education. Divine Mercy voluntarily created this accreditation process, meeting or receiving all standards and thorough evaluation. Also, we're approved to operate by SHEV, State Council of Higher Education in Virginia. The PsyD program has been recognized since 2006 as a national organization program at the Association of State and Professional Psychology Boards. And probably most notably of all is that we've been our APA accredited that is accredited by the American Psychological Association and that's since 2016.

45:01And DMU has been, approved to participate in national council or state authorization of sub proxy agreements. So as you can see, we have, basically total and utter accreditation at every level. Okay. So here again, like Chris was mentioning, distinguishing between counseling and and other, mental health professionals in psychology, the main difference being the the scope of practice, the ability to test, and and things of that nature that are quite particular to, clinical psychology in the sense that a lot of our curriculum centers around and also cultivates, testing skills for our students. It is a five year program, so that means it's a 123 and includes a master of psychology in passing on route to the doctorate.

45:50So, after successful completion of the first two years of study, you'll receive a master of psychology degree. Note, though, that if you, decide to withdraw from the program after the masters, that does not, prepare you to be a clinician. Okay? That's, this is a master's that's designed to be in passing en route to a doctor. So it doesn't mean that you can then practice as a as a psychologist or as a counselor. So bear that in mind. In terms of the curriculum itself, though, you'll see that, it is mostly front loaded in terms of this coursework and some very, course heavy in the first two years. It is also a year long pro sort of, current like, you'll have things going on in all parts of the year.

46:37So you'll have a fall semester, spring semester, and a summer term. You can also see that there's a comprehensive examination for the PsyD at the end of the third year. And, Chris had mentioned that he's kind of on the cusp of finishing his proposal, and that's typically done in the second year. Is that is that accurate, Chris? Yeah. I think, by the end of December of the second year, you have your chair named. And And then I think it's actually by the third year, spring maybe, that you would have your proposal done, with hopes then that you would have your dissertation written and and, adequately defended before the internship year, year five. Yeah. But, yeah, thank you for laying that out.

47:22Right? So, chair names in the second year, proposal in the third, and then hopefully, you defend by the end of the fifth. Is that did I get that right? By the end of the, fourth before going on internship. That's sort of the Okay. That's that's I think that's the fast tracked ideal, that that we're pushing for hoping for. Sure. Yeah. No. That's helpful. Okay. The other things we know okay. So yeah. So here again, the notice how the coursework diminishes as you move through it. The expectation, of course, being that it becomes more clinical in nature, and so you're going to be seeing more, people in your third and fourth year. And, of course, in your fifth year, it's an entirely, clinically based kind of situation.

48:05What else to say? Oh, yes. Okay. In terms of internship, we since becoming APA accredited in 2016, our placement has gotten better every year. But so back in to give you some perspective, back in twenty seventeen, eighteen, we we had 85% of our students getting into APA accredited sites. But now here we are in '23. We have had a 100% placements in APA sites for a couple of years now already. So I think that speaks volumes to the quality of the training that people receive here at Divine Mercy, and the really kind of stellar caliber of our faculty in general and the students as well, of course. Chris, is there anything I'm I'm missing that might be helpful for people, maybe things that you wish you would have known that you that you didn't regarding the curriculum and these kinds of things?

48:58I think you did a good job, Bradley. One thing I might add is, as you talked about front loading academic work and then ending with heavier clinical work. So I'm currently in my second year, so I've I'm in my first practicum placement. And for all students, that's at the IPS center, which is here on campus, which is a fantastic benefit to students that we have a clinic right here on campus where we see, clients from the community who come in. Now in that year two, you'll see maybe, I think, one to three clients, I think, is what we had, sort of what the, benchmark is. And then as you progress, you know, year three, you'd begin an externship site that's, off campus somewhere, within the Northern Virginia DC area.

49:51Same thing with year four. And then the the APA accredited, predoctoral internship is what Bradley was referring to for that fifth year. So, the front loading of classes with the heavier, clinical work towards the end, they kind of, switch as they go in the sense of, you don't have a lot of clinical work at all in the year one, and then that ramps up as, academic work, sort of ramps down so long as you're on track with your dissertation. Mission can be up there. Yeah. But I I just wanted to highlight, though, that having the IPS, clinic on campus is such such a gift, for for those who attend DMU. It's right here on campus, and the staff who staff it are fantastic people as well. So it's attached to to to DMU, and I've enjoyed my time there thus far.

50:47So just wanna add that, I think. Yeah. Excellent. Now, Chris, could you say a word about, dissertation expectations and maybe how dissertations differ? Well, thankfully, there is a dissertation handbook that will, that all students read and have in their back pocket, for questions. But, so there's there's sort of a general timeline that's provided for it. And, thankfully, for for those of us, for most of us, actually, we can incorporate into some of our dissertation seminar classes and then, stats classes thereafter some of our work in writing the dissertation, which is, something I've been really grateful for, as I as I mentioned, having a family and, just being limited in my own capacity to do everything.

51:51But there's a I think there's a there's a wide range of dissertation topics that are taken, and that are done. Typically, I think that the process is is, you know, that year before you even start here, but also year one, and definitely year two, you're thinking about what are what are ideas that I could run with for, a dissertation. And then you work with your you work with different faculty. You go sit down with different faculty and and see what their interests are, and how that aligns with, your dissertation idea. Now what one of our classes that we had in the first year, as you see here, academic year one summer, dissertation one, it's in the top right of the curriculum. Actually, maybe no.

52:42It it wasn't that. My my apologies. It was the spring, so in the middle column. We had faculty come in and visit with our classes and talk about, here's as a faculty member, here's some of my research topics. Here's some of the dissertations that I've chaired. And then we have the opportunity to ask questions and then think of ideas, brainstorm. And so it's it's really actually a collaborative process of working with faculty and their interests, working within your interests, and then you put together a committee of a, of a of the chair, a first reader who's also, a DMU faculty member, and then a third reader, who essentially help guide you in your dissertation work. And there's there's a there's a whole library here of finished dissertations that have just a plethora of ideas that have been done, already from I think, some of the topics that people are looking at now is, like, flourishing marriages, to theoretical orientation theoretical orientation things that I talked about previously, kinda mapping on, you know, theory and the Catholic view, virtues.

53:53There's, a lot of different opportunities there. I know that I'm not doing justice, I think, to the whole, endeavor of dissertation work, but that's a bit of a snapshot. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's super helpful, though. I mean, that's you know, it builds on a lot of, you know, what people might be thinking in terms of expectations for how it proceeds. So thanks for that, Chris. Yeah. Yeah. Let's move on to, a couple questions of disturbance. Do you want to help people flourish? Are you interested in the science behind human behavior? Do you want to become an instrument of healing through the psychological sciences? Are you interested in performing psychological tests and assessments to diagnose your clients and create treatment plan?

54:32Are you looking to start a career as licensed mental health professionals, specifically as a clinical psychologist? And do you have the ability and desire to work with all types of clients from acute care to more challenging and long term client cases. So if you're hearing this and you're thinking yes to all these questions, then you've probably come to the right place. Now in terms of major areas of competency in our program, there are foundations in psych science and research, integrity and practice, assessment and diagnosis, therapeutic intervention, professional roles, and then clinical practice from a Catholic and interpretive perspective. Let me just say a word, briefly about all of these here.

55:08So first is foundations in psych science and research. Graduates will attain foundational psychological science knowledge of biological, cognitive, effective, social, and developmental aspects of the human person as well as history and systems of psychology, psychological measurement, research design, and statistical method. Graduates follow the skills necessary to conduct their own psychological research. Two, integrity and practice. Graduates be knowledgeable in areas of diversity and ethics and display critical thinking, software and effective practice and self care. Graduals to demonstrate responsiveness to supervision and collegiality and professional performance in professional practice.

55:43Three, assessment and diagnosis. Gradual fields conduct clinical interviewing, perform intake evaluation, demonstrate knowledge in in the administration, scoring, and interpretation of psychological assessment, insert multiple sources of test data, and clinical interview information into written reports, diagnose, and develop treatment plan. For therapeutic intervention, graduates will be able to demonstrate case conceptualization, treatment planning, building, maintain therapeutic relationship, psychotherapy skills, crisis management, divergent and social circumstances, and discharge planning. Five, professionals, graduates be able to function and write required roles for professional psychologists to include consultants, educator, supervisor, practice manager, and program evaluator.

56:24They'll be able to work collaboratively within this of our teams and with clients. And then six, clinical practice from a Catholic integrative perspective. Graduates will develop a Catholic understanding of human flourishing in individual person marriage and family life and be able to integrate this with psychological sciences and clinical practice. Okay. So, of course, clinical psychology is a very diverse field. There's so many different subspecialties within it. So the main task of this program is to get you licensed. Right? So so, hopefully, before long, Chris will be doctor Chris Graf, LCP, licensed clinical psychologist. Right? And and it's definitely does avail to our doctoral graduates a whole variety of work settings.

57:07So these are a few among them. Psychiatric hospitals, military establishments, private practice, of course, very popular. Outpatient clinics, diaspora consultation. And this is the one, of course, Chris mentioned explicitly. Right? So the ability to conduct assessment for, people that are, applying seminary, and they want to be, people wanna make sure they're fitted for for priest and ministry at personality assessments among other things are are important and requisite. And then, you know, being, on staff in a clinical facility as well. So these among many other things are common, workplaces for our DME grads. Now, we've had really legions of students come through our doctoral program and flourish here and move on to, a lot of success thereafter.

57:50These are just a few of many, testimonials, that speak to our program. So these are all, doctoral graduates here. James Wallovich has said in our clinical psychology program, the training is focused on healing the human person the whole person. Kristen Long, I was drawn to the Saudi program. I've reserved to serve others in a more profound way than my previous positions offered. Timothy White, the school is not afraid to teach you what it means to be human at every level, psychologically, philosophically, theologically. That's why I like it. And then Pearson Curtis, I'm so thankful for DMU. The faculty members are very supportive, and I received lots of hands on and clinical experience. Okay.

58:28I'm afraid this slide is not working. Okay. Here we go. So this is a video testimonial from a recently graduated alumna. I would say that being a student at DYM University or TMU is one of the best thing that happens to me. I really appreciate a great support from faculty members and also classmates. I have gained a great deal of knowledge in all aspects of clinical practice, research, and also professional development. DMU not only provides student with strong academic skills, but also prepares them for a career in psychology. I personally benefit from mentorship with academic advisor and clinical supervisors. As a person, what I most appreciate from DMU is that its mission helped broaden my perspectives in understanding a human person through the lens of Catholicism.

59:34Catholic principle, especially in hope, love, and faith are very valuable and certainly helped me become a better clinician. Okay. Now, we offer a generalist program in psychology here at DMU. So we have faculty members with expertise that span the entire field of psychology. These are a few of of many. Doctor Lisa Kaloki is our IPS dean. She's a specialist in assessment and therapy. Doctor Graves is our assistant program director. She's a specialist in child and developmental psychology. Doctor Orianna is our director of clinical training. And these three gentlemen were among the founding faculty members of our school, back in its genesis in the late nineties. So this is doctor Scrofani. He's a specialist in CBT and group therapy.

1:00:26Doctor Nordling, a specialist in child marriage and family. And doctor Bitz, his work is really centered around the nexus between theology and modern psychology. Doctor Bitz happens to be a massive intellectual hero of my own. He his whole story, I just I I love I love telling it. He was actually once an atheist, believe it or not, when he was a young man. In fact, he was an atheist, until his late thirties, and he converted to Catholicism while he was a professor of psychology at New York University. And his wife too kinda went through a very similar journey. She was an atheist professor, and she became Catholic. Anyway, what came to the the forefront of his own mind while this while this is happening in his own interior life was he wanted to understand how how do we really reconcile these two disciplines of theology and psychology when they seem, at least superficially, to be sort of, set against one another, at least in the way that is presented in a lot of the secular academy.

1:01:31Anyway, this wrote this, what to my mind is is very much of a seminal work, called the psychology of religion. This came out, I think, in 1977 where he kind of takes a look at the trajectory of humanistic psychology over the course of the twentieth century. He really offers a rather sobering critique. He looks at a lot of the main players such as Abraham Maslow, Carl Rogers, people like this. And the and, especially, he takes on the the, principle of self actualization, and he really kinda takes us to task and and shows that, you know, really, when psychology becomes unmoored from theology, the the task of psychology becomes somewhat rudderless. And this is what I think Chris had reverted to earlier in our conversation when he was talking about, you know, to really have the the, have psychology be fleshed out by the broader perspective of philosophy and theology.

1:02:28It kind of gives it a really much stronger ordering ordering principle and helps, to bring people to flourishing. But this is work, you know, went on, you know, from that, and he moved into other areas of research on Freud. He got into that into the '80 in the eighties. He has a book on Freud. And then around the time of our school's founding, he wrote a book called Faith of the Fatherless. And this is, one of my favorites. I mean, he he basically, the argument there is that, the way that people understand God is very much mediated through human fatherhood. And so because God is a a father, at least by analogy, in a way that we we understand him, this argues that a lot of the major players in in modern philosophy, especially the atheistic philosophers, he shows that if you if you look at their own sort of family dynamics and especially their own fathers, it was often a very, they're often very fraught relationships there, and the and fathers were often either abusive or absent or and some in some cases where he talks about Nietzsche's father, where Nietzsche's father died when he was a very young young boy.

1:03:35At any rate, so what he argues is that a lot of the, what passes for the intellectual project of atheism is actually more often this kind of psychological consequence of the way that people have come to see God again mediated through the human father. And in some ways, this is a fascinating kind of inversion of the Freudian projection theory of God. Right? So that that God is kind of like this, projection of our own subconscious need for a father. But for or excuse me. This argues that more often the case is is that that we we understand God through our own fathers, and many times this can be a very warped example. So, anyway, all I'd say, doctor this work is very foundational for our own, beginning, divine mercy and his foundation.

1:04:25And then this sort of from his own conversion story and his own intellectual project, the the university kind of came to be. So, but sadly, though, doctor Vitz has recently retired, so he's not officially, a professor here, but he's he's an emeritus, and he comes, he sort of comes to campus here and there. So it's always good to see him. Alright. Now to get a little bit more more practical here. Now in terms of licensing, of course, licensing would be required for anyone wanting to practice as a psychologist. The main point here being that this is something that you would need to sort of seek out, certainly. But on the other hand, we have lots of resources here for students that, want to find information related to how they can become licensed in whatever state they choose to practice.

1:05:14And so much like if you were to go to medical school or law school, getting the doctoral degree does not immediately confer, the ability to practice as, say, as an attorney or a physician, but same thing as a psychologist. Once you finish your doctorate, there's usually a nine to twelve month period of supervision. And then after that period of supervision is over, you you generally take your licensure exams. And then at that point, you, god willing, are a full fledged licensed medical psychologist, and you're free to, practice on your own. These two graphs depict a distinction I like to draw between simply buying something, especially a good example of being a car. Right? Because, I mean, cars are notorious for losing their value, after you buy them.

1:06:02Whereas this is quite the opposite, especially like Chris had mentioned. The the the demand for mental health professionals is quite real. The modern world is very much beset by a lot of mental health problems. People are are find themselves very much, in many cases alone, anxious, suppressed, addicted, among other things. And so there's a serious need for people to take up their rotations as healers in faith and in science. And so this has becomes a from a financial ROI business perspective, it's like looking at from supply and demand situation. There's a great demand for clinical psychologists and therapists. But also if you consider the supply, right, I mean, there aren't as many doctoral level clinicians as there are masters.

1:06:52It is a more rigorous and more intense program. You get a deeper understanding of, the human person through more extensive research. Also, you know, the ability to test and do a certain have a certain scope of practice that that really goes beyond master's level training means that you're going to be kind of the supply will be diminished. And so, of course, we now have a a great amount of demand and not that much supply. While, of course, what Chris said earlier is true that one probably shouldn't just go in and forward this just to make money, still, you can do very well, as a as a psychologist provided that you, play your cards right as it were. So that's something to consider. In terms of the investment itself, $1,001.70 per credits, 122 credits over five years is a $142.07 40.

1:07:43Most of our students do use, they use federal aid to help pay for it. The FAFSA note that the FAFSA becomes available December 1. So you still have a little bit of time to, before that becomes available and then to take action on that. We do, although, offer a number of ways to defrag costs for students. So for one thing, we offer work study, which is certainly available on campus. In the earlier stages of a person's time as a doctoral student, they're usually able to do, basic jobs and say the admissions or business office with me and my colleagues. And then as they go through the program, say, in third and fourth year, they often take on more substantial jobs, say, as an RA or a TA, and there, they get to use their psychology training to, help their fellow students.

1:08:31So there's that. If you happen to be Catholic, and it can demonstrate that you're a one in good standing and you're active in a parish, then there's a discount relevant here. So I think that's between 1015% off of tuition, which is super helpful. Also, we offer a slew of scholarships to which you would be able to apply. Now you can apply to up to four of them maximally and receive two of them. And they pay out up to the amount here indicated to the right depending on the scholarship. And there's these scholarships, sort of relate to different demographics. So I would certainly encourage you to take a look at all of them on our website, divinemercy.edu/financialaid. The last thing to say, though, is that we do offer merit scholarships based on, well, merit.

1:09:16So this is not something that which you specifically would apply to, like these other scholarships. Rather, the way this works is that candidates are evaluated per interview and ranked. And so in the top, depending on the mission cycle, depending on what, you know, five just top five to six candidates will receive, merit scholarships and the the highest being, half off of tuition is our top scholarship, and then they they range down to a quarter, of tuition. So that's clearly, substantial. Now entrance requirements, we do require at least a baccalaureate degree from an accredited institution. We do prefer that you study psychology, though that's not strictly necessary. We've had students come to us from all backgrounds, from hard sciences to humanities and and arts and everything in between.

1:10:08So but if you don't have any formal psychology training, we we will typically ask you to complete a, prerequisite course, which is an online one, done normally over the first year. Of course, the first year, it's pretty straightforward. It's really a, undergraduate course in psychology, spread out over two semesters. So it's it's usually not that difficult for people. And, also, we typically want a GPA as a least of three o. If you're not quite there, let's say you're on cusp of that, maybe you have a two, seven, eight, nine, something in that, vicinity, please talk to me, email me, schedule a time in my Calendly page, and we can talk about it. It might not, be necessarily prohibitive. So reach out to me, and we can talk about it.

1:10:58Now in terms of application, and how this works, the first thing to do is, provided this is making a lot of sense to you, is to apply online. And once the online application is submitted, our financial aid office will reach out to you. And then once the other elements of the application so I'm gonna talk about this a minute. But the other things include things like essays, recommendations, transcripts, the GRE, all those other things. Once we have them assembled, then I will submit your application to the dean for her review and provide that she approves your, candidacy. You get an invitation to an interview. As you can see, we have three different interviews per admission cycle. And these are all in person, on campus, on-site interviews.

1:11:46Okay? So they're all day affairs. The the one that's most impending here, is November 10. So a little over a month from now, but not not too far away. This is probably our most popular interview for, the simple reason that we offer a $3,000 tuition remission in the first year for students who are admitted in this interview. So, slots are rapidly, you know, being taken up. I think at this point, we only have eight left. So, if you wanna take advantage of this of this, you know, special offer, please get in touch with me, and I can I can help you, hopefully, get it over the end, in time? If, say, that it it doesn't work out, we can move you to the next interview, which is on January 26. So that's something to bear bear in mind.

1:12:43Okay. So let's really briefly, I like to recap the procedure because, in terms of application because this is often misunderstood. Okay. So here again, the first step is the online application, and that's distinct from and separate from everything else. So you might think of this as, like, a two step or at least a two tiered process. Okay. So first thing on the the online application submitted, this is mostly data entry. It will ask you about, where you're from, your address, your phone number, your email, where you went to school. It will also ask you for recommenders. So you need to provide the names, emails, and phone numbers of people who you think would be ideal to recommend you as a budding doctoral student.

1:13:24But notice though that, when you put in your recommenders, you do not need to reach out to them and then ask them necessarily for permission because you're going to do that once the application is submitted yourself. Okay? So once the application is submitted, then you reach out to, your recommenders and say, hey. I'm whomever you are, and I am applying to Divine Mercy's doctoral program. And then, god forbid, one or more of them says no. It's no problem at all. You can reach out to somebody else. Okay? So, briefly to review, online application first, then you seek out, recommendations from people. And then included, that needs we the other things we need to receive are essays. So you and there's two essays.

1:14:11One will ask why you wanna be a clinical psychologist and why you, want to study at Delaware University. And then we'll also the second one will ask you about your academic and clinical interests. We talked about, how that played out in Chris's own application and his own sort of journey, in psychology thus far. We'll also need your resume and your, of course, your transcripts and then the GRE. I do wanna say one word, though, about this GRE. Okay? A couple of so so first is that the GRE, while it is required, there is no okay. So, like, there's no waiver for the GRE. Okay? We require every student to to do it. So while that's a requirement, the GRE is simply, not the most important elements of the application.

1:14:59So we're as you can see, we're looking at multiple, different dimensions of each candidate. And and we truly do, look at everybody and and as as a, multidimensional kind of candidate. We're not just looking at grades and GRE scores, especially in a field like clinical psychology where we need to have a good sense of you as a person, and and your promise to to be a good clinician. So, that to say, the GRE, while it's a consideration, is simply not the most important part of it. So it is much better to get the GRE done promptly than to get it done perfectly. So, keep that in consideration. If you are an international student, let's say you hold a degree, from outside The United States, we will need that to be evaluated because a lot of foreign countries have a grading system which is different from American GPAs.

1:15:54So in that case, you'll need to have yours, submitted to a website like west.org so that it can evaluate, and transcribe the application into American GPA so we can what it means. Of course, this degree will have to be the equivalent of an American bachelor's degree. If it's not in English, we would need that to be translated into English. This, of course, is your own responsibility for the cost. And finally, if English is not your primary language, and by that, I mean, if English is not the language that you're used to conversing in on a daily basis in your personal and professional life, you're going to have to, get an English test done either by the TOEFL or by an IELTS, I e l t s academic test.

1:16:40Okay? And the TOEFL requirement, I mean, we need at least a 100, out of a 120. So, but what what this can we tell you what this doesn't mean? So there's often confusion about the difference between being a native English speaker and whether or not English is your primary language. So let's say that your native that your first and native language was Spanish, say, but you, you know, you your, English is excellent. You use English conversationally in your personal and professional life is what you're used to, on a daily basis. That means that English, we would regard that as your primary language, in which case you would not need to take the TOEFL or the yields. Okay? So if that's you, bear that in mind.

1:17:27If you if English, here again, if that's what you use most of the time and most of your life, then you don't need to take the the tools. So I hope that's clarifying. Okay. That is that. Let's take a look at the q and a and the chats. We talked about that one. What do we have here? Okay. What are the major this is John Burton. What is the major differences between PsyD and PhD? Alright. Chris, do you wanna take that one? Sure. So to my understanding, the difference between PsyD and PhD is that SID, I think, stands for, practitioner scholar. It's a practitioner scholar model. And it's I don't need to get to the weeds, I think, of how, PhD came first and then PsyD came later. You can find some of that online.

1:18:34But to my understanding, what makes, DMUSID program and how it's different than PhD is that it has an emphasis on both becoming a clinician as well as doing scholarly work. So that's where you have, the ramping towards clinical work with our externships and the predoctoral internship, is the clinician side. And then the academic side would be, of course, all of our classes as well as our dissertation. I think PhD, has more to do with the research emphasis. I could be wrong to some degree there depending on the program, but that's how I understood it. Bradley, I don't know if you wanna add more to it. Yeah. Yeah. No. I think you I think you basically got it right. I mean yeah. So PhD does predate the PsyD, in terms of, you know, like, what came first.

1:19:30But, like Chris was saying, the the the emphasis between practitioner scholar, and scholar practitioner or sometimes the verbiage is, scientist practitioner or practitioner sign whatever. However you wanna phrase that, the idea is that the PhD has a premium and effortless on research and the PsyD on clinical application. Now, that does not mean, though, that, say, that you, you like them both and and you say, oh my gosh. Like, if I go to Divine Mercy, that means I'm I'm always going to be a a clinician. That's not necessarily true. So, I mean, certainly, if you came to us and you discovered, that you really love research and you wanted to be a university professor, you wanted to publish and write books and and and what have you, that's totally wonderful.

1:20:22And some of our students do, in fact, go down that route. They they, we, in fact, have a director of research training, doctor Rebecca Morrison. She's, does a fantastic job of getting students that are interested in research and academia, into postdoctoral programs in whatever field they wanna practice in this. Like, a classic example would be something like neuropsychology, or a field that has a lot of emphasis on research and even more extensive training beyond, the Psy b program. So if that's what if that, you know, is attractive to you, but you also, like, you you know, you think you wanna be a clinician, you can't you can't go wrong, with our own doctoral program, though. If you were the type that is, doesn't knows that you don't want to do clinical work at all, the PsyD probably is not the best option, because as Chris could probably tell you, I mean, that's it's a big part of our own curriculum.

1:21:20And in fact, most of our graduates become clinicians. So I hope that gives you, you know, a good kind of synopsis of those the the two. Okay. Let's see. Alright. If you already have your master's degree, how long is this IT program? Great question, John. So, this I this is kind of I hope to get this is sort of bad news, I guess, as it were. If you have a a master's, it will not, truncate the time spent in the program. It's going to be five years probably regardless. Okay? What it what but the good news is that, you will have your transcript submitted, and you might have maximally 18 credits, transferred. So you might have a lighter load in certain semesters here and there, especially if, you know, these courses are good sort of, fits with our own, coursework.

1:22:19And so the dean can say, so, you know, he's taken developmental psych, and we had developmental psych, and he doesn't have to take that course, something like that. It can make the program lighter, but it's not going to say let's say you have a master's in psychology. It's not going to mean that this is all of a sudden a three year program, and you sort of start in year three or whatever or year four. Doesn't work that way. Okay? So bear that in mind. And for that reason, I also do not sometimes people ask me, you know, do you recommend that I get a a master's first, to prepare myself for the the PsyD? And I say absolutely not, and partly for that reason. Right? Because in in some sense, you're, spending more time and more money, prior to starting a doctoral program like our own.

1:23:07So that's that. Okay. John Schwartz. The cost of living is very high in your area. Are the internships and externships paying jobs? Alright. Chris, do you wanna speak to that one? Sure. So I am not positive regarding the externships. So as I was mentioning earlier, first year is all academic. Second year begins in the IPS center, for their our first practicum or externship. That's not that's not paid. It's about ten to fifteen hours a week. And then year three is our first externship. Year four, there's another externship locally. I think some of those are paid, but I think the majority of them are not paid. That's my, at least, anticipation. I'm personally not expecting to be paid for my externship, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if I am.

1:24:08And then the, the fifth year of the predoctoral internship, my understanding is that those are paid. That's a full year, internship, at a site sort of anywhere in the country, that we are matched on. So, the payment for those, though, I I'm not sure what the range is. I think probably somewhere around 30,000 a year. I'm not sure on that regard, but I think that's kind of what my wife and I are budgeting for what our future is gonna look like during that year. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I yeah. It's completely agree. And and to piggyback on that, that's, now the one thing I would add, though, is that in the fifth year, you yeah. So you might think of the fifth year as as analogous to, like, a medical school residency.

1:24:58Right? So you are going to make money. But there are some internships that are going to pay much more than others. So for example, if you got into a military internship, that's going to pay much, much more than most of the other ones. In some cases, two or threefold. And so just kind of to bear that in mind, if if that's, you know, crucial for you, then, yeah, you might want to try to get into something that is related to the military doing PTSD, you say. But, yeah, I mean, the externships, are typically, you know, like Chris said, not what you shouldn't expect to make money from that. Also, do most students work? Chris, what do you what do you think about that? Some do. It's challenging if you do, but some do.

1:25:46I do. It's limited, given it's a full time, PsyD program. Especially, I think, as clinical work picks up, the ability to work, will lessen. But, it's I think, to my understanding, it's it's a bit of a case by case basis, that you work out with your academic adviser, and and the dean. So, I think, you know, each person has their own unique situations that you have to kind of iron out what that's gonna look like. I think many of us do, work in some capacity. I know a number of us do, different assistantships at the university, and those things can be really helpful for that piece. I don't know if you wanna add more to that, Bradley. Yeah. I mean, I I think you you've got it mostly. I I would only add that it's not reasonable to think that you would hold down a full time job and and do the program.

1:26:51Right? I mean, like, especially a full time job that's, like, during the the day and because, I mean, this is a you might think of this as a daytime kind of gig. Right? Monday through Friday, you you know, weekends off kinda thing. But this so, John, Schwartz, you know, you're a LPC. I mean, so provided yeah. I mean, provided that you're able to see people, outside of club courses and things like that, That's that's, you know, certainly on the table. You know? But, yeah, it like Chris said, it's it's a it's a balancing act, you know, being able to hold down the the reading load, but and and also work duties. But it can be done. Right? Well, you know, as as Chris is is managing so far. Okay.

1:27:43Alright. Can you, can your guest speak to the work school balance to help give Richard texture what that might look like in the first two years in particular? Yeah. I can speak to that. So, first two years in particular. So what we've done so we have classes in the, fall, the spring, and the summer. And there's a bit of the break over Christmas, bit of the break in the summer, not very long. I don't think either is or more than four weeks. And we'll have classes about four days a week. And so what we had so far is for those first two years, one one day off a week from classes, that you're, you know, working on various things, that are due. What what we've done I can just, like, speak from my own personal experience with my own family, is, like I said, my wife works full time as a physical therapist.

1:28:47And two days of the week, she's working twelve hours a week. The other three days of the week, she's done at one. And so what we've done is balanced sort of our, my schedule of class time and her time in the clinic to minimize the amount of time that we have her, at a at a local day care. That's something that's important for us to try to have her as home as much as possible. Now this this day care, I I gotta say, man, is highly reputable. There's, like, three or four other DMU families that have either been there or are there currently. So we're we're taking it over. Anyways, so what it looks like for us is, when I'm in class, and when Elise is working, Greta will be at day care. And then, we try to have Elise, when she's off, she's home.

1:29:39And then during Greta's wake window, I'll typically be awake and, playing with her, maximizing as my time with her. And, then when my girls go to bed, I hit the books. And, a lot of times, what that'll look like is maybe some later nights during the week, and then on the weekends, taking care of the rest of the things that need to be taken care of. And so, you know, some weeks when things are heavier on the weekends, I'll, have to really just sort of find that place where I can, get some work done, home office, or get away to a library or something like that, and weeks that things are a little bit lighter, I'm spending time with family. I'm trying to spend time with family as much as possible.

1:30:26So, that's kinda part of the, like, that's part of the balance is kinda recognizing, okay, how can I be organized with my schedule to know when when are classes, when are things due, when is when is my wife working, when do we need to have Greta, with someone to be cared for, and then just keeping up with it all, making sure that things are getting read and turned in, timely, and then maximizing on time with my my girls when I can? And I wanna go back to something that, you had said, Bradley, just regarding, like, things to do in the area. You drive three hours east and you're in the ocean. You drive three hours west. There's some mountain ranges. Yeah. And locally, I mean, farmers markets and other fun things to do that are around town, parks and walking paths and, things like that.

1:31:15So, there's definitely time for leisure and there's and, but you have to kinda carve it. You have to prioritize it. You have to make it happen, amidst the other, tasks and responsibilities. And so that's kinda what it's looked like for both years, of four four days a week of classes, one day a week that's off, that you're thankful for to kinda keep catch up with some of your other things that are due. And then with my family in particular balancing, when when is my wife working? When am I working? When am I working in schoolwork? What kind of care do we need for Greta? And just making it all work and keeping up with things based off of our calendar. Hopefully, that kinda fleshes out for you a little bit.

1:31:57I think you're kind of it seemed like you were looking for, what's what what does it look like? What's the schedule like? So, hopefully, that's helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's I I think that's basically what what was asked. John, okay. What are the approximate costs? Okay. We just we just mentioned that. So, I mean, I I, you know, I assume that that you got that. Let's see. Good. Alright. Yeah. It sounds like you got that, John. Fantastic. And it looks like that's it. So with that, let's conclude. I wanna thank you very much, Chris, for joining me, and sharing your story, both, you know, prior to you DMU and your time here. It's been, most illuminating. I think a lot of people can really benefit from your own experience.

1:32:50So thank you very much. Yeah. For sure, Bradley. Thanks for having me. And if anyone, has further lingering questions just regarding, you know, family life and doing school here, or any other questions that seem applicable that I might be able to help with, feel free to ask Bradley for my contact information so you can connect us. I'd be happy to do that. And thank you, Bradley, for all the good work that you do for this, for this, university. Oh, you're quite welcome. I'm happy to do it. Okay, everyone. It was great to, have everyone on board for this webinar. God bless, and then bye bye.