PsyD Webinar with Dr. Garrett Boyer

0:06Welcome to the doctor of clinical psychology webinar. My name is Bradley Cypher, and I'm the admissions advisor for the PsyD program here at Divine Mercy University. Joining me today is a 2020 PsyD graduate, doctor Garrett Boyer. And so I'll be asking doctor Boyer about his own experience here at Divine Mercy and his journey within psychology and after graduation in addition to, the presentation. And then I'll be able to feel well, doctor Boyer and myself will be able to feel their questions after the presentation. So if you do have questions, either during the interview or the presentation, please lodge them in the chat box, and we'd be happy to attend to them, at the end. In addition, in the chat box, you will also find my email, my Calendly link, my, other ways to contact me, also prior webinars and testimonials from previous students in the PsyD program.

1:04So, it's please, get in touch with me. I'd be happy to meet with you and explore, whether the PsyD at Divine Mercy is a good fit for you. So with that, let's get started. So, doctor Voyer, why don't we begin, with exploring how exactly did you become interested in clinical psychology in the first place? Hi, sir. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me here today. I'm glad to get this chance to visit with you and to share kind of, an overview of my background. I'd always been interested in, behavioral health, the science of psychology. When I was in undergrad, in North Dakota where I where I did, seminary studies, I took a psychology class. I was really fascinated, at the contributions that the discipline of psychology could make and and did make.

2:02I referenced that I was a seminary student, and I was in the seminary for years and years. Got close to ordination before I discerned out. But I realized the importance of psychology as I went along in the seminary because often when I would visit with people, the things that a lot of folks wrestled with and struggled with were not as much related to, spirituality, religion, or theology, but they were really wrestling with behavioral health issues and and mental health concerns. And so that was one of the things that I started reflecting on and thinking about as a seminary student. Wow. The stuff that they're working on and working through, I don't really have a lot of the tools or resources or or background to to help them address some of this stuff.

2:56After I just turned out of the seminary, I wasn't exactly sure, what direction I was gonna take. So I lived and worked in the Washington DC region for a number of years, doing a lot of different things. But it was always in the back of my mind to consider behavioral health psychology as an option. And so, eventually, that that thought kept coming back. That invitation to to explore behavioral health, to explore psychology just wasn't going away. And so I submitted a few different applications, and at the end of the day, I'm thankful that I was accepted and and and got into Divine Mercy University. It worked out well for me in that I was already living in the Washington DC region. But more importantly, the scope, the mindset, the direction of the school, the way that they conceptualize behavioral health, behavioral science, It it really fit in well with me, my own personality, and and the way that I wanted to approach the discipline of psychology.

4:11Excellent. Thank you for for sharing that, doctor Boyer. Say then a little bit more about you you know, you mentioned that you were in the DC area, and this was, also, you know, close by. But, expand on why you chose DMU in particular. Yeah. I think in psychology, there are a lot of different subspecialties. There are a lot of directions you can go. There are a lot of different things you can do as a psychologist. You can do a lot of therapy work. You can specialize in assessment. You can zero in an education or, consultation. I took the military route. There are a lot of things that you can do with psychology. You can get those skills, that training to to be that subject matter expert, at a lot of different institutions.

5:09The thing that distinguished Divine Mercy University for me, which I appreciated, was the fact that they approached the discipline in science of psychology looking at it through a lens of Catholic anthropology. And so I think having that foundation of a well thought out, time tested, true Catholic anthropology, using that as a stepping stone for advancing and, approaching and and furthering the discipline of psychology was just very appealing, very attractive. One thing that I have observed in, in behavioral health is I looked, say, at the American Psychological Association's publications and and magazines, these sorts of things, I get the sense sometimes that behavioral health fields of psychology sometimes feels like it's kind of clinging to a a small wrap bobbing up and down in a in a stormy ocean.

6:24And I never got that sense at Divine Mercy University that we were trying to go at psychology, on shaky ground. I think the fact that we have approached psychology, that's built on this foundation of the Catholic anthropology, it made studying and reasoning, thinking things through approaching the science so much better. And and just it was an excellent way to, go about studying and and growing in this discipline. Excellent. So it it sounds like the Catholic anthropology that the school provided. And like you like you said so well, it was rather well thought out. I mean, there are as I as I tell many, people with whom I speak with daily, there are many Catholic schools that teach psychology that have wonderful, either PsyD or PhD programs.

7:23But the unique thing about divine mercy, it's like we our faculty have compiled, an entire volume, the Catholic Christian meta model, and you as you can see, it's rather substantial. So they've thought they've thought about this in a lot of detail in in terms of, the intermachinations, the interplay between the anthropology on the one hand and the science of psychology on the other. And it sounds based on your experience that, this has been helpful, you know, for you as a as now as a as a psychologist in the field. Is that fair? Oh, absolutely. And one thing that was so remarkable about it was after I graduated, I work in the military now as you can see from my uniform. Yeah. A thoroughly secular environment.

8:09A lot of my people that I graduated with went off and and worked in in distinctly Catholic settings. That's not the case for the United States military. Nevertheless, the people that I work with on a daily basis, whether it's my peers, my patients, my subordinates, leaders that I consult with, that framework that you find in the Catholic Christian metamodel of the human person is applicable to everybody. And so it doesn't matter whether I'm approaching my work, in a in a distinguished Catholic way or whether it's the kind of work that I do as a military psychologist. That framework is equally useful, important, valid, and to me has been very helpful because the kind of material that you're gonna read in the Catholic Christian meta model of the human person, it's the story of of everybody.

9:15We're all we're all sharing in the human experience. We're all striving to be the best version of ourselves. We've been created. We have our struggles fallen. The savior has come, and we've been redeemed. Everybody is working that and experiencing that journey in their own way, their own shape, their own form, and it's it's been so relevant and useful to conceptualize the human person in that way because even in the military, even in most secular settings, that same kind of dynamic is very, very present. And I'm glad that I can address it and use the kind of language and and think it through, in a way that I was trained to do at Divine Mercy University. Excellent. So, yeah, doctor Boris, it's interesting that you make that point about the that use that word, the relevance of the meta model and and the import of Christianity for psychology because, maybe, ironically, a lot of people with, that I talk to daily have kind of the opposite concern or maybe an attending concern, which is that, you know, how, you know, as a as a person that is trained in, a Catholic graduate school of psychology, you know, how will I be able to reach, the secular world, the people that aren't religious, and and things like that?

10:42And it sounds like well, first so first of all, that we are all kind of, embedded within a similar or these the same human nature and that the, you know, the Catholic anthropology is able to attend to all people. I mean, Catholic being universal, right, in the Greek. Is it is that is that an accurate take? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I I I think that that, point that you bring up was certainly something that was relevant, especially when I started at Divine Mercy University. When I first got to school, they had not gotten the APA accreditation, the American Psychological Association accreditation. And so there was concern, and it was a little bit of a risk, that myself and and my peers all took, by applying to the school because we didn't know for sure that the accreditation would happen.

11:34I think we all certainly prayed and hoped that it would and and felt pretty good about the chances. But there was that concern. Well, what happens if, worst case scenario, there is no accreditation? We're gonna be pretty limited in in what we can do and how we can practice and where we can go. Once the accreditation came, that opened a ton of doors, a lot of opportunities to then go out to parts of, parts of the world where previously our students and graduates hadn't been able to go, like the military, for instance. Mhmm. With the APA accreditation, I was able to get an internship and residency in the army and work as a behavioral health officer for the government. Excellent. And in a way, you've all you've already anticipated one of my other questions, which is relevant to the internship and indeed how impactful is the internship, you know, for, you know, your trajectory as a as a psychologist.

12:37And it sounds like, the APA accreditation, has been has allowed you to get a fantastic internship and and sort of provided for the career track in which you're on now. Is that right? Yes. And I will say one thing, about my training at Divine Mercy University. Just like any school, just like any kind of training that you participate in Mhmm. Set you on a trajectory, but the work isn't done. It's not finished. And just very, very thankful. I'm very fortunate to have the internship experience that I did because they really tried and tested the, the the training that I had gotten at Divine Mercy University. And I think my my formators, my superiors, my military supervisors were all very, very pleased and and surprised that a student coming from a school that they hadn't had as much exposure to, Divine Mercy University, that a student could come out of there, with the kind of skill set that I had and really fit in and plug in perfectly within the military system.

13:51A lot of times, students who come into a military internship come from different schools, secular schools. And that's fine. That's great. I think they were wondering, how is this guy gonna fit in? How is he gonna work? They they knew they knew where I had come from. They knew my background. They read my resume. Mhmm. So the question question that I I'm sure they were asking was, is this guy gonna be able to deliver? Is he gonna be able to give the military, our soldiers, what they need? And not only was I able to do that, I think I distinguished myself from my peers with some of the skill sets that I was able to bring because of the training that I had gotten at Divine Mercy. Excellent. I I wanna I wanna press this business to the meta model just one step further.

14:42So sometimes I hear from from graduates such as yourself, you know, when they talk about the the impact of the meta model within psychotherapy. You know, they're asking the question, what difference does what concrete difference does the meta model make within psychotherapy? And one thing that has come up, has been that many clients, in fact, want to discuss religion within the context. So it's like they're not not all of them, but some of them some of them do. And, those of our graduates who've gone through our program and are well acquainted with how to integrate, in the discussion of philosophy and theology within psychotherapy has has turned out to be a a blessing in terms of their their comfort and and ease of of having those conversations with clients.

15:26Has that been your experience? It really has. I never have forced it on any of my patients, on any of my clients, but it has happened so so often that it just sort of naturally comes up in the process of therapy. And even in the process of assessment, I do a lot of assessment. It really has been remarkable for me to see how just naturally as a result of conversation, topics with these sort of themes come up, because it's it's it's what being a human is all about. We're all experiencing this dynamic of of humanity. The fact that we're wrestling through, we're working through, we're progressing, we're on a journey. Sometimes my my clients, my patients, folks that I work with will use explicitly Christian or Catholic language.

16:27Sometimes they don't. But they're all getting at the same kind of thing, which is that metamodel of the human person. This is what this is what it looks like to be made in the image and likeness of god. It means that there's gonna be trial. There's gonna be tribulation. It means there's gonna be struggle. It means that we're gonna have to journey together and walk this thing through. And it's okay to to be on a journey like this. It's just been very, very enlightening to me, that so many of the folks that I've worked with have have been able to articulate this themselves. And, again, like you have mentioned, sir, I'm just grateful that I have the the the lingo. I know how to address it. I know how to speak about it in a way that is therapeutic, grounded in evidence and is evidence based, and ultimately is helpful for my patients and the people that I work with.

17:32Excellent. Fantastic. So, so you've spoken already to the trajectory that, you know, your your career is on. You've taken the military path. Fantastic. Can you expand a little bit, more about your own sort of clinical and academic interest in psychology and what role that's played in your career? Yes. I am a military psychologist. I mentioned at the beginning that there are different subspecialties under the umbrella of psychology. And being a military psychologist is most definitely a specialty and a a very distinct way of applying the science of psychology. And even in military psychology, there are different avenues that you can take or different kinds of applications that you can have. I referenced at the beginning that in psychology, some of the bigger roles are, educator, teacher, supervisor, consultant.

18:32In the military, what I love about being a military psychologist and especially the role that I'm in right now is that I get to do all of those things and so much more on a daily basis. That's one thing that I really have appreciated and enjoyed about the army is that you are thrust into environment circumstances, situations where you're gonna have to rely on the training that you've got very quickly. So the job I'm in now, for example, on the secular side of psychology, I I'm doing the work that somebody who's been in maybe ten or fifteen years after graduation will be doing. In the military, you're gonna be thrust into, very important positions very quickly because of the needs of the army, because of the demands of the of the mission set.

19:28And so I find myself in a situation now where, I'm responsible for a lot. I've got a lot on my plate. And, nevertheless, even with that, I don't feel intimidated. I don't feel scared because I've had excellent training in residency and internship. But even before that, it was all built on that very solid foundation of clinical skills, that I picked up while I was studying at Divine Mercy University. So my interests are specifically related to military psychology. I wanna make a career of it. I would love to, see where it takes me. I mean, the army can look a lot of different ways. The model that we use generally is called an embedded behavioral health model, which means that the psychologist doesn't sit in the hospital and wait for soldiers to come to him or her.

20:25We get embedded with the unit. So if the unit deploys, psychologist deploys too. If the unit goes to a range to practice shooting or goes out to the field for a training exercise, psychologist is right there with them. So I love that aspect of military psychology. It's the discipline, the science of psychology, but also the super fun army soldier stuff, because that's what happens in the army. You're a soldier first, and officer second, and then whatever your job is comes third. And and and that's how I've sort of formed this in my own mind. I'm a soldier first. First job is soldier. I'm an officer. I lead others. I have responsibilities to others, and then I do my job. And I try my best to do it very, very well.

21:20I'm a psychologist. And that means teaching, working with therapy, doing assessments, consulting, all these sorts of things. It's been an awesome journey. I've loved every minute of it. Can't can't wait to see what's gonna happen next. Fantastic. That does sound exciting. Let's let's go back, though, to your time at divine mercy for a minute. What would you say would be sort of on the one hand, the most enjoyable and rewarding part of divine your divine mercy experience? On the other, what would you say would be sort of the most challenging and the most difficult part of the journey, in the PsyD program? Okay. Yeah. I love that question. Do you want me to be perfectly honest? Or Brutally honest.

22:11Okay. It's not brutal. Well, at times, it's been brutal, perhaps. When I was at Divine Mercy University, I met a girl, and I ended up getting married to her. And so that was not something I went to school looking for, but, that's the way it happened. Actually, there were a number of students, while I was in school and then after I left who had gotten married to other students. Kinda interesting how that all works out. So for me, that was, that was a great benefit of of being at DeFei University more more towards the question that you're asking about specific kinds of things you'll get at the school. I think one of the things that I found most enjoyable, most interesting, were the different personalities, styles of the professors.

23:07We had we have had and we still do have at Divine Mercy, upnotch professionals, who really are experts in the field. And I had had a background doing teaching, and so I just thought it was awesome to go to different classes and see the style, the approach, the technique that different, professors use and how they kind of structured their classes and presented. And it's been very helpful for me because as a military psychologist, a big part of my role is teaching, presenting, doing educational kinds of things. So even though it wasn't a formal part of the curriculum, I learned a lot by observing my professors watching. And so that was one of those things that I really enjoyed, about this school is the diversity of the professors, the the way that they were all distinct from one another, and yet each of them just did an excellent job, I thought, in their own way.

24:11And I was glad to to get to see that. Different challenges. It's graduate school, so it is challenging. It wouldn't be worth doing if it didn't challenge you, if it didn't stretch you. Right. I didn't, pull you out of your comfort zone a little bit. I think one of the challenges that I had was doing externships. Throughout the course of your time, you'll be expected to participate in externships, which can be at different, sites around the Washington DC area. And I had a few externships, that were very, very good. I love them, and I grew a lot from them. I think what made it challenging was to take the material that I was getting on externship and connect it to everything that we had been learning at Divine Mercy University.

25:10So take, for example, I did an externship at the NIH in, Bethesda, and the externship was specifically in neuropsychology. Oh. Now we've been exposed to neuropsychology, quite a bit at Divine Mercy University, but it wasn't, like, the main thrust of our curriculum. We had gotten plenty of, exposure to it, but it wasn't like that was our thing all day every day. But that was the case at the NIH, and so it was a matter of, for me, finding a way to get all the material that I needed in order to be successful at that externship. So that was one of the challenges, but a very good challenge, a very relevant challenge. I I especially was grateful for that opportunity because it became such a, an important part of the work that I do as a military psychologist.

26:11As you can imagine, there's a lot of neuropsychology in military behavioral health, people with traumatic brain injuries, people who jump out of helicopters, hit their heads, people who are exposed to a lot of explosions, gunfire, the vibrations from being in flying aircraft. These sorts of things all have a big impact on brain health and having that experience at the NIH and being able to take what I had been learning in Divine Mercy University and apply it at the NIH and then carry it forward to what I'm doing now in the military. It's awesome. Fantastic. Excellent answer. Again, you anticipated another one of my questions, which is about marriage, actually. You know? Because I there are lots of prospective students ask this question about, you know, either they are already married or they hope to get married, you know, soon within the next, hopefully, few years.

27:11Could you expand on that point a little bit? Because, I mean, you know, you've you've gone through it. You've done it. You've got married. It sounds like you got married in graduate school. So to other people that have that concern or or even speaks to the experience of others who were also married, how manageable is it? Yeah. That's a great question. I think it depends on each individual person. It depends on one's own ability to manage their time, how they go about getting tasks done. Listen. Eight plus one is nine. Seven plus two is nine, so on and so forth. There are a lot of different ways to get to the end, to get to the right answer. And I think somebody is looking at graduate school.

27:58They're concerned about, that work life balance. They're concerned about the demands of graduate school and other commitments, married life, family life, if if that's the state you find yourself in, you're gonna have to find what we call in the military your battle rhythm. And it's not it's not something that's out of your reach. It's something that you can it's something that you can work on, get better at. But I think that it's gonna be a matter of understanding as best you can before you get into grad school. What is the pace gonna look like? How is this gonna work? Kinda thinking through what your day to day might look like. If I'm on class all day, how is this gonna impact the time that I get to spend with my spouse, with my children?

28:48Am I gonna be able to go home? My family is in the Midwest. How often will I be able to fly back and visit family? How am I gonna be able to take care of all these other aspects of life? Really, the question of graduate school is the question that anybody else has to ask themselves all the time. How do I balance everything? How do I juggle everything? Graduate school is, in fact, gonna be placing a heavy burden on you. It's a lot, and you want it to be. Because by the time you finish with graduate school, you wanna have the competency to go out into a practice and do the job exceptionally well. So if you're gonna be able to do that, you're gonna have to carve out the time and find a way to make it work.

29:33And that doesn't mean that the rest of life is just gonna stop or that everything else is gonna be put on pause. You gotta find a way to balance, to juggle. The good news is that it's something that a lot of us were able to do. You'll be able to do it as well. Excellent. Well said. Okay. So, what doctor Boire, in your opinion, what would be some very good reasons to do this ID, and what would be some very bad reasons to do this ID? Okay. Yeah. I like that question, and I think that there are more good reasons to do it than bad reasons. One that I have really come to appreciate and and love about the work of a psychologist is the expertise that they can bring as a an assessor. And so that's one thing that distinguishes psychologists from other counseling professions, whether it be social worker, LPCs, even psychiatrists.

30:40We bring a unique skill set of being able to assess to the table. And so Divine Mercy University formed me, I think, exceptionally well and prepared me very well to come right out of grad school and be a very effective and efficient assessor. Personality assessments, intelligence assessments, personnel decisions, all these sorts of things are very relevant and important in the military. And so for me, it was a great idea to do the PsyD program because it gave me that foundation and that expertise as an assessing, provider. And so now I can come into an institution like the army and do complicated psychological assessments answering very challenging behavioral health questions. Perhaps in the context of therapy, a provider has got a patient, and they can't quite put their finger on it.

31:41You know, they had this experience, but they're reporting this, and I just don't know what to what to do with this. Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Boom. That's where the psychologist comes in. Here's an assessment battery. Let's do a diagnostic interview. We can iron out some of those questions, provide some clarity, get some guidance, helping the provider, helping the patient. To me, doing the PsyD program, is tremendous, and that skill set of being an effective, competent assessor is tremendous. Very good idea to do this ID program if you are interested in being an assessor. Are there bad reasons to go into this ID program? I don't know that it's necessarily a bad reason, but one thing that might be it might have an impact is if you've got your own stuff, and everybody does.

32:38We all have our own, issues that we're working on working through. I think one thing that can make your experience, a little different is that if you're trying to work on your own behavioral health in the midst of school. And there's a sense that we're all kinda doing that because you're learning new stuff. You're taking in new theories, new ideas. I remember very explicitly one course we had, which was, sort of an overview of the DSM, the diagnostic statistical manual. Essentially, it's a book which gives you the different behavioral health and mental health diagnosis, and we go through it very thoroughly. And I remember as we were in class, I would read this, and I'd be like, oh, boy. Well, that kinda sounds like me.

33:25Or, oh, is this one me? My oh, gosh. You know? There's that sense that we can all sort of identify with some of these issues at various points in our life, but you don't want you don't want your own stuff, regardless of how significant it is, if it's if it's really troubling or problematic or less troubling or problematic. I would be conscientious of how your own personal stuff is fitting into the way that you are training to work with, other patients. Fortunately, that part of what you study is how to manage that, how to keep from projecting your own stuff into the therapy session or onto your clients or patients. So that's just something that would be conscientious on because I've heard others I've heard of that happening.

34:17Others will get into this disappointment because they've they've thought this might be a way to kind of work through their own issues. I'm not saying you can't do that, but just realize that that might have an impact on the way that you approach any stuff. Excellent. That's that's super helpful. Alright. Now what would you say would be maybe one or two, three at the most most formative ideas that you learned at Divine Mercy that have been especially impactful in your work as a psychologist today? Yeah. I like that question, and there are a couple things that I definitely see, on the day to day where I'm like, Yep. This this links back to what we learned at school. The first one that I'll say is the idea of attachment, which is sort of built on the idea that Freud had.

35:19In a nutshell, Freud's idea is that you're kinda set on a trajectory from the time you're young. And we can deviate a a a certain way from that, but our early experiences with other people have an influence and impact the way that we're gonna get along with others as we go about, the course of our life. And so attachment theory came in. It was introduced by a theorist named John Bowlby, and his idea kind of built on Freud's thought, which is that early relationships influence and impact relationships later in life. Well, who has a relationship? Everybody. Nobody lives in a cocoon or in a little bubble. We're all involved in relationships with other people all the time. If you're at home, you've got family.

36:17If you're at work, you have peers and colleagues and coworkers. If you're out on the street, you're in a community on the subway. I mean, we're always involved in relationships. And the things we say, the way we think, the things we do, the behaviors we we do, the things that we don't do, all of this stuff plays into that equation of of how a relationship is gonna look and work. And so Bowlby really worked this out and other theorists as well, Mary Sporth, Mary Maine, have some great literature on this. But this whole idea of attachment, I see it all the time, every day because we're all, in a relationship with others. So how does that relationship work out? I I see with my soldiers, if they're having problems with their leadership, if a leader is having a problem with their subordinates, one of my soldiers is having difficulties, at home with a loved one or a spouse, or if they're a junior enlisted with the person there in the barracks.

37:21I always try and get a sense for, well, what do other relationships you have look like? Is this distinguished from from other relationships? Is there a pattern of problematic interactions with other people? That idea of how are they attached to other individuals, very useful to understand, very helpful when you're kind of thinking through clinically where we at with this person. So that idea of the relationships, the attachment, the attachment style, how does that play into, where we're at with this patient? So that's one thing that was very helpful that we picked up and learned. Another thing is aspects of personality, aspects of personality functioning. As an assessor, one of the things that we will test for is to get a better sense of what a person's personality is like, what are their traits or customs or habits that kinda go into making up that that personality?

38:29Different theorists say different things, but, a lot of professionals sort of weigh in on five big personality factors. Maybe you've heard of them, the the big five. The acronym is OCEAN, so the openness to new experiences or different experiences. Conscientiousness, the level that we're conscientious of ourselves, of our environment, introversion versus extroversion, and then we've got agreeableness. How agreeable are we? Then finally, neuroticism. And and that kinda has a negative connotation to it, but what it's really getting at is particularities. How are we with being a certain way? So with all the personality factors, it's not a matter of right or wrong or good or bad or anything like that.

39:25It's a matter of having self knowledge. Where am I on these scales, on the continuum, say, of openness to new experiences? Where am I? And then how is it gonna work, or what will it look like if somebody else that I have a relationship with is maybe on the other side of that continuum? And I see that all the time in the military. There are leadership teams. Perhaps one leader, say, for example, is extremely conscientious, whereas his or her peer may be on the opposite side. There can be some differences of opinion in a case like that. I found it to be very helpful to give some of this education about the personality factors and to help leaders and and soldiers understand, hey. It's okay that you're here and that you're over here.

40:21And now how do we reconcile? How is this gonna work? How are we gonna come together when it comes time to make decisions about this or that or the other thing? So just off the top of my head, those are two big elements that I I find myself thinking about every day. The idea of attachment, how how are we with our relationships with others, And then the personality aspects, those personality factors, how do those play into the bigger picture? And it's useful for me personally because I always have to think about my own relationships, my relationship with my family, with my spouse, with my boss, with the people that I am a leader for. I'm always thinking about my own relationships, and I'm always thinking about my own personality.

41:10I'm this way. How does that how does that impact somebody else? I may be very gregarious and and and in your face and sort of that alpha personality. What if there's somebody who's on the other side of that? How are they gonna receive me? So it's been useful for me to kind of navigate my own leadership style, my own, way of plugging into the military community. But then I see it, and I try and coach and teach about it with everybody else that I work with in the army as well. Excellent. I love that answer. That's that that gives a nice sort of, over just, like, a few important and impactful, points that you learned at Divine Mercy. For those that are, who are listening, who are sort of on the fence between psychology and counseling, and they're interested in those points that you just made, namely, attachments, theory, and Freud and Bowlby versus the big five in personality.

42:12Would you say that those are topics that could be explored just as well in a counseling program, say, at the master's level, as in a doctoral level? Or is this something that really, you know, to get to plumb the depths of the those those two realities, you really have to do the doctorate? I think it depends on what kind of work you're doing as a counselor. I certainly believe the idea of attachment and relationships, are relevant across the spectrum of behavioral health. I supervise a lot of social workers. I supervise a lot of LPCs, counselors, and I I would be concerned if they weren't able to address issues related to attachment. If they can't work with a a service member, who's who's got stuff like that going on, I would have some concerns as a leader and as a supervisor.

43:13At the same time, and I alluded to this earlier, there are some things that distinguish a psychologist. I think a psychologist is gonna be able to go into those elements of attachment maybe a little deeper, but then certainly the personality factors. I think my counselors, my social workers that I work with in the military are aware of it and and maybe have studied it somewhat extensively, but they don't have the expertise to assess for it. They can't interpret, a testing instrument, with the kind of clarity or expertise that I could bring as a psychologist. And so you may have exposure to this and may even have, built up some expertise in these in these different things as a counselor or as a social worker.

44:05But as a doctor of psychology, I I can just see it in my own work. I can take these things to a different level than other professionals in my in my clinic cannot. Yeah. So it so it sounds like, say, with the with the with the counselors, like, they might be aware of the big five. They might be able to spot neuroticism or extroversion or conscientiousness or what have you, but you as the psychologist are actually able to carry out those assessments and have a more precise, diagnosis of whatever that personality is. Is that right? Sure. Yeah. We can just we can we can take it deeper. We can be more precise, be more zeroed in. But I think it too. You see things similar in medical models. Doctors, physicians, and and nurses do a lot of things similarly, but the scope is somewhat somewhat distinct.

45:08And they're they're they're they're doing some things in a different way. So it is with the psychologists and the counselor. There's a lot of ways that our disciplines overlap, or the psychologist and a social worker. There are a lot of parallels that can be drawn, and yet sort of the thrust or, some of the focuses of a social worker are gonna look different than that of a psychologist. And we just bring to the table a a very big and relevant piece of the puzzle with the expertise that we get along the way as, psychologists when we train. That's a excellent answer. Thank you, doctor Boire. At this point, let's transition, to our slideshow presentation. I'm gonna put this up on the for everyone to see.

45:59Okay. So as I go through this, I'm going to, you know, ask doctor Boire to comment, in certain places just to sort of get his take on on, his experience at Divine Mercy, but also to give you all a good take of the whole. So let's get into it here. So Divine Mercy University is a Catholic graduate school of psychology founded in 1999 as the Institute of the Psychological Sciences, and it is dedicated to the scientific study of psychology with the Catholic Christian understanding of the person, marriage, and family. Its expansion, from IPS to Divine Mercy University occurred in 2016 to facilitate growth and add a counseling program at the graduate level. So we are one university. We do have two distinct schools.

46:44The school of counseling is a offers a master's program in counseling. It is mostly online. And then the Institute of Psychological Sciences houses both the residential doctorate and the master's in psychology. The doctorate, of course, being entirely residential, throughout the year, and the psychology the MSP being entirely online. So our mission is to provide students with an effective academic and educational environment that supports the integration of the psychological sciences and a Catholic Christian understanding of the person through teaching and learning both knowledge and critical skills. It also assists students intellectually and professionally as they prepare themselves to respond to the vocation as mental health professionals.

47:30So we are located outside of Washington DC in Sterling, Virginia. So for those of you who have been to this area, it's truly a wonderful place to work and live and study. We have access to both city life toward the East, toward DC, about an hour, drive. And then to the West, we have the Appalachian Mountains. So for those of you who are more outdoorsy in in, interest, we have hiking and canoeing and vineyards and and all kinds of things like that. So, really, this is a, a place that has something for everyone, I would say. So, as doctor Boyd had mentioned in in our interview, we are fully accredited at every level, including APA accreditation. So we attained, APA accreditation in 2016. And so, that has, of course, continues to the present day.

48:24So as a therapist practitioner, you would be able to perform psychological assessment and testing and diagnosis journeying with your clients toward flourishing and healing. And as doctor Breuer had mentioned, you know, the really key distinguishing hallmark of clinical psychology is the ability to assess and diagnose with more precision through psychological assessment, which, of course, you would, be offered ample training in in our doctoral program. Now in terms of the overall structure of the program, it is five years in total. Okay? So, it is a hundred and twenty two credit hours and does include a master's of psychology and passing on route to the doctorate. So after the first two years of successful coursework, you would be receiving a master's in psychology degree, and then an additional three years for the PsyD.

49:15In year one, the main task is the coursework in psychology. Also in the in the second semester in the first year, you're going to take a dissertation methods class. And so this is the, ideal opportunity, for you to really kind of think about your dissertation, think about what topic you want to explore and with whom you like to explore it, what faculty member would be most fitting for you to, dive into something in in a lot of detail. And whatever and like doctor Royer has said, there's, you know, psychology is a massively diversified field. There's so much there's so much exciting, areas of research that you could, become involved. In year two, similar to year one, we the coursework does continue, though this is sort of your first, foray into the world of being a clinician.

50:02You'll usually have two to three clients in your second year on our on campus clinic here on campus. In years three and four, it does shift somewhat, in in the sense that you're going to have more time spent in the clinic and somewhat less time spent in the classroom. So in that sense, it it resembles, medical school, and and there's an analogy there in the sense of the shifting, nature of how your time is is allocated. Now in year five, that is the internship year to which you'll be applying in year four. Now we've had being APA accredited, we've had a 100% success rate of getting our students into APA accredited internship sites, both this year and in the year before. And I think in the year before that, it was it was something like 98%.

50:48So you getting into a excellent, APA accredited, internship is is very high. Anything you would wanna add to to the schematic, doctor Porter? I will mention that the sites that our graduates are going to for internships, are really excellent. And especially in in the last few years, I've seen a diverse, number of internship sites where I hadn't even thought a person would go. Baylor University, for example, we've sent students there. University of North Dakota. So the university setting, private practices, military setting for myself. Some of our students have gone to places that specifically do, work with psychological testing. I just really enjoyed seeing from one year to the next the different kinds of internships that our students get picked up for and very competitive, sites that that they should definitely be proud of getting into.

52:02Excellent. So these are some questions of discernment, in terms of figuring out whether the society is is a good fit for you. So do you want to help people flourish? Are you interested in the science behind human behavior? Do you want to become an instrument of healing for the psychological sciences? Are you interested in performing psychological tests and assessments to diagnose your clients and create a treatment plan? Are you looking to start a career as a licensed mental health professional and specifically as a clinical psychologist? And do you have the ability and desire to work with all types of clients for more, acute care to more challenging and long term cases? So if you're thinking, yes.

52:39Yes. Yes. Yes. Then this is probably a good fit. Now the key areas of competency that we do aim to inculcate in our doctoral program are are these. So foundations in psychological science and research, integrity and practice, assessment and diagnosis, therapeutic intervention, professional roles, and then clinical practice from a Catholic and interpretive perspective. I'll go through each of these in turn. Alright. So the first, foundations in psychological science and research. Graduates will attain foundational psychological science knowledge of biological, cognitive, effective, social, and developmental aspects of the human person as well as history and systems of psychology, psychological measurement, research design, and statistical method.

53:23Graduates will have the skills necessary to conduct their own psychological research. Two, integrity and practice. Graduals will be knowledgeable in the areas of diversity and ethics and display critical thinking, self aware and effective practice and self care. Graduals will demonstrate responsiveness, supervision, collegiality, and professional comportments and professional practice. Three, assessment and diagnosis. Graduates be able to conduct clinical interviewing, perform intake evaluation, demonstrate knowledge and administration scoring and interpretation of psychological assessments, integrate multiple sources of test data and clinical interview information into written reports, diagnose, and develop treatment plan.

54:01For therapeutic intervention, I'm glad to be able to demonstrate case conceptualization, treatment planning, building and maintaining therapeutic relationship, psychotherapy skills, crisis management version, and special circumstances, and discharge planning. Five, professional roles. Graduates be able to function in a variety of required roles. Professional psychologists include consultants, educator, supervisor, practice manager, and program evaluator. They'll be able to work collaboratively within the Eastern teams and with clients. Six, clinical practice from a Catholic and interpretive perspective. Graduates will develop a Catholic understanding of human flourishing and individual person in marriage and family life and be able to integrate this with psychological sciences in clinical practice.

54:46Okay. So as as we said a number of times, today, you know, psychology is is very diverse. There are lots of different fields. But for our purposes, for the sake of time, really, I do want to highlight that really the main task of this program is to get you licensed as a clinical psychologist. Okay? And usually what attends this, you know, getting the highest level of academic and clinical training in psychology is oftentimes a position of leadership. You know, doctor Erboya is, you know, certainly a leader within, military, you know, being an officer, but, you know, that's that's one track. But there are men there are a myriad of others in which you could find yourself involved. You could go into private practice.

55:26You could work in a hospital. Doctor Gorrie, would you, care to mention any other specific settings where you could occupy a position of leadership as a psychologist? Yes. Certainly. One that is, some of my peers and colleagues I know have done this, where they'll get involved in formation of, seminary students or, or those in religious life. And so they'll be having the responsibility of perhaps providing counseling, but more so being a consultant to the formators, to help them understand the strengths, vulnerabilities of a candidate for the diaconate or priesthood or religious life. And that's a way that, especially within the Catholic community, psychologists can be real leaders and help guide formators in making these decisions about who are gonna be the best ones to send forward for the work of ministry.

56:31Thank you. That's helpful. Okay. Now in terms of testimonials, we've had really legions of students come through our school and the doctoral program and come out and flourish as, clinicians, as psychologists. So these are just a few of many, testimonials. So James Walovich has said, in our clinical psychology program, the training is focused on healing the whole person. Kristen Long, I was drawn to the PsyD program and as a desire to serve others in a more profound way in my previous positions offered. Timothy White, the school is not afraid to teach you what it means to be human at every level. Both psychologically, philosophically, and theologically, that's why I like it. And then Kirsten Curtis, I'm so thankful for DMU.

57:11The faculty members are very supportive and received lots of hands on and clinical experience. Okay. So speaking of military things, well, this is a video testimonial of one of our current third year doctoral students, William Johnson, who's on work with PTSD in combat veterans. Hi. My name is William Johnston, and I'm a PsyD student at Divine Mercy University, currently approaching the end of my third year in the program. Military service runs in my family, and, and so both my grandparents served. My parents both served. This door, the PsyD program at Divine Mercy University opened the opportunity for me to continue to give back, to conduct research, and hopefully implement a more robust program to treat PTSD as it relates to combat veterans.

58:12DMU has certainly provided the integration that I saw in terms of my formation, both the philosophy and theology core, in addition to the psychology curriculum, has provided me growth in terms of my faith, and my role as a husband and father, and, of course, a psychological clinician. So in essence, the Catholic Christian meta model of the human person is is why I'm here, both for my own sake as well as the sake of my future clients. We have one other video testimonial. This is from a recently graduated alumna. I would say that being a student at TY Mercy University or DMU is one of the best things that happens to me. I really appreciate a great support from faculty members and also classmates.

59:21I have gained a great deal of knowledge in all aspects of clinical practice, research, and also professional development. DMU not only provides students with strong academic skills, but also prepares them for a career in psychology. I personally benefit from mentorship with academic advisors and clinical supervisors. As a person, what I most appreciate from DMU is that its mission helped broaden my perspectives in understanding a human person through the lens of Catholicism. Catholic principle, especially in hope, love, and faith, are very valuable and certainly helped me become a better clinician. Now, about our faculty, we have a generalist, program in psychology here at Delimarcys. So what that means is you're going to be exposed to, virtually every major field within psychology, everything from developmental, personality, social, the entire spectrum of psychology.

1:00:32In addition to that, you're going to be trained in all the major areas of psycho psychotherapy. You know, certainly, as doctor Boyer mentioned, you're gonna be trained in theory, but also, things like, DBT, EFT, IFS, psychodynamic theories, CBT. Really, the whole panel play will be kind of set before you. Let's take a look at a few of these professors. There there are many others, but these are just a few, samples. So doctor Lisa Kulicki is our dean and program director. She's a specialist in adolescents, adults, and couples therapy. Doctor Graves is a expert in child and developmental psychology. She's also our program assistant program director. Doctor Piccararo is a specialist in addiction and trauma.

1:01:18These three gentlemen here at the bottom were amongst the founding faculty members of our school back in the late nineties. So doctor Scriffani is a specialist in CBT and group therapy, doctor Nordling in child marriage and family. Doctor Vitz's work, doctor Vitz is in fact has retired at the end of this year, though he'll probably return to campus sort of episodically, to visit. But, really, he played a found a a crucial role in the founding of our of our school. His work being sort of situated at the nexus between Catholic theology on one hand and modern psychology on the other. Now licensing. So is licensing required? Yes. Certainly. A license to practice is required by each state or jurisdiction where one might practice as a counselor.

1:02:01When licensing begins after the student has completed the approximate internship and officially graduates from Divine Mercy, states can and often do have additional and differing requirements. So students are responsible for checking state requirements where they plan to work and adhere to them. These do typically include national and state exams. So MRC will provide general information related to licensure during the student experience. Now who initiates licensing? Licensing is a student driven process, so it's important the student to begin research of licensing requirements in the state that he or she intends to work in as early in the program as possible. Now will students be fully licensed after graduation?

1:02:37No. Graduates must work about a year in a supervised clinical environment in addition to other state requirements to be licensed. And a graduate may be required to obtain a provisional license during this year period, so check your state for individual requirements. Now the this, these two graphs depict a distinction I like to draw between simply buying something on the one hand and something purely material like a car, in which case the value of that will rapidly depreciate within a few years. By contrast, investing in yourself for education, investing in your own minds, really, in your knowledge, to become trained as a clinical psychologist, a field that is in very much in high demand with, you know, so much mental health issues today in our modern world.

1:03:25The value to it that you will be able to bring to other people is still very likely to do precisely the opposite, namely appreciate, over the course of your career. Okay. Now the investment itself, it is, 1,170 per credit for a 122 credits, $149.40 over five years. Of course, that doesn't include fees or indirect expenses such as housing, food, gas, that kind of thing. Provided that you, feel comfortable moving forward and applying, our financial aid department can provide a lot more, information about the the financial side of things. But most students do, involve, federal aid, you know, to certain loans or grants from the government. And the FAFSA form, I do believe, opens for this coming year in October 2023.

1:04:17Now to defer any costs, however, we do offer students assistantships and work study programs on campus. So for example, if you wanted to, you could work with me and my colleagues here in admissions or in the business office, for example. There are also a number of alternative financing options that financial aid could, explain in more detail. But one thing I would like to highlight is this thing called diocesan investments. It's an MOU, a memorandum of understanding, through a diocese in the in the sense that provided that you're, a Catholic in good standing at a parish, say, you would wanna appeal to the diocese and say, hey. You know, I'm starting a doctoral program in psychology at Divine Mercy University.

1:04:56And in many cases, the diocese will offer 15% off of tuition. So that's certainly something that you would wanna take advantage of if that fits you. Now as you can also see, we have a slew of other scholarships that you could take advantage of. And these apply to various demographics, and they pay out in the amount up to the amount indicated here to the right. You can apply to up to four of them, receive up to two scholarships. And for more information about, each of these, you wanna visit divinemercy.edu/financialaid. Now in terms of entrance requirements, we do require a baccalaureate degree from an accredited school. We while it's true that we do prefer students who have studied psychology, it's by no means required.

1:05:44So we have had students that have attended and succeeded in all basically academic areas, everything from engineering, math, art science to music, arts, English, literature, and everything between economics. We do also ask for a minimum GPA of three o on a four o scale. If you're close to that, if you're sort of on the cusp of three o, maybe you had a, like, a two eight or two nine as an undergraduate, talk to me. We can probably, find a way to move forward, despite that. So let's see what else. Okay. Now in terms of the application process, the thing to do, provided that you wanna move forward, is to apply online. That's the first step. And once you do so, the financial aid office will get in touch with you.

1:06:32And then after that, we do maintain communication. And then once all the other elements of the application are received, and you're competitive, you'll be invited for an interview. Now there are three distinct interviews per year. The first is in November. The second is in January. The last one is in March. Now that we are having this webinar here at the end of Mar excuse me, end of May, means that most people listening to this now would want to apply for this one in November. However, I will say that that's the most competitive one, for a couple of reasons. The first is that, we offer $3,000 off of your first year's tuition if you get admitted into that interview, the early interview. Moreover, this is also the interview where we do allow the most money, the most scholarship money, especially to a merit based applicants.

1:07:24So, if you have a GPA of three five or higher, you're eligible for a merit scholarship ranging between fifty, five zero, and 25% off the tuition. So for that reason, this does tend to be the most competitive, but still, it's worth, applying to and getting into it. Alright. Now completing your application. So to be considered for admission, you have to get all of these things in before the interview. So for example, part one, as I mentioned, the online, application does include a $55 application fee, but it in part two, it includes the following. So essays. We do have two essays. The first will ask you about why you wanna be a clinical psychologist, why Divine Mercy would be a good fit for you and vice versa.

1:08:12And then the second asks about your academic and clinical interest within psychology and how you would, use those interest in a dissertation. You don't have to have a a dissertation worked out, a proposal worked out per se. That doesn't happen until much later. But to get a sense of where you wanna go with your research would be very helpful. Also, we do require a resume, an updated resume, and then three recommendations. Two of these recommendations do need to be from academics, so professor professorial recommendations. If you've been out of school for some time, that's that's okay. Just make sure that you offer us professional recommendations, say, from, employers, past employers, present employers, perhaps.

1:08:54But what we don't want here are personal letters from, say, your family, your friends, your therapist, your your your pastor, unless you work for your pastor. We want professional recommendations or academic recommendations. So, moreover okay. So official transcripts from post secondary institutions will need all those. So if you've gone to graduate school, we'll need those as well. And then the GRE. So we do require the GRE done before, you know, you you get into the interview. This is the school code, so you definitely once you get to the test site, you want to send your scores to us at, this is the school code 5639. If you've taken the GRE, within the past five years, you won't need to do it again.

1:09:43You can just send those to us, and that should be fine. But beyond five years, they're they're considered dated, and they do need to be retaken. Okay? The last thing that I need I should say about the GRE is it's simply not the most important elements of the application. So a lot this is a very common question. A lot of people are are nervous about the GRE not having had, say, math in long time, fifteen, twenty years in some cases or more. And and and just know that while it is required, there are we really consider the entire applicants. Okay? So everything from your the first of all, I would say the interview itself is extremely important. How you conduct yourself, your degree of professionalism, your humility, but also your your your intelligence and your insight and how you well, you respond to questions in the interview is extremely, impactful in admissions decisions.

1:10:36But also, of course, where they do look at essays, they look at resume, they look at transcripts and recommendations from professors and others. So don't fear not. If, you know, if standardized testing is not your can of worms, do not despair. It is one thing among many others and by no means is the most important thing. So do keep do bear that in mind if that applies to you. Okay. If you are international, applicants, and you've attained degrees outside The United States, you will need to have your, transcript evaluated by a NASIS approved service. And most commonly, this would be awes.org. So, have your course by course evaluation completed through that website. And then, if you pull degrees outside The United States, they need to be demonstrated to be at least the American baccalaureate degree.

1:11:28And if they're not English, they need to be translated into English. And then finally, I would say that if you would consider English to not be your primary language, and by that, I mean, English being the language that you use for the most part in your personal and professional lives. If that's not you, if it's mostly, say, Spanish or or another language, you will need to take the TOEFL test, which is a test of English, or the IELTS, I e l t s, academic test, and have that sent to us. Okay. That's all I have. So I'm gonna take a look at the questions, see what we have here. Okay. So James Slaughter asked, what was that book again? Okay. So that is, a Catholic Christian meta model of the person integration with psychology and mental health practice by Titus Nordling and Bits.

1:12:29So a a Catholic Christian meta model person. It's sort of like you might say the a foundational text for, it it it comes up in many of our classes here. And so it's for that reason, it's extremely important. Would you would you have anything else to add to that, doctor Boyer, about the the meta model or the book in general? Yes. I will say that it's tremendous, and it really is kind of the bedrock upon which the whole approach to psychology and DMU is is built upon. So last weekend was the graduation celebration for this year's graduates from Divine Mercy University, And one of the authors of that book, doctor Paul Vitz, was actually the commencement speaker. So he's been practicing in the field of psychology for decades.

1:13:21And if you had the chance to hear his address, he gave what I thought was one of the most succinct and excellent summaries of psychology, especially in The United States, summarizing what has happened in the last hundred years. The graduation ceremony is on YouTube. If you type in Divine Mercy University graduation twenty twenty three, if you if you fast forward towards the end, you will be able to hear doctor Vitz's commencement address. And in that address, he relates it and ties it into how it is that at our school, Divine Mercy University, we have the the science of psychology has sort of culminated with this, approach, the Catholic Christian metabolic, and how we can use that now as a springboard to advance and continue to move forward with the discipline of psychology.

1:14:22Yeah. I I I couldn't agree more with that. I I think that that speech, is a very distinct summary of of of a lot of the thrust of of doctor Visser's work, life's work. You know, for so for those of you who, want to learn more about our school and really its its origin, its founding, I highly encourage you to, investigate the work of doctor Paul Bitz. Beginning with, his first sort of most seminal book, Psychology as a Religion, published in 1977, where he provides sort of, like, you might say, an overarching critique of humanistic psychology over the course of the twentieth century. And but but also, you know, if you if you follow his later work, you know, an article that he published back in, I think, 2005 in First Things, called Psychology and Recovery.

1:15:15And there, he sort of, expands on what he talks about in, this commencement address that doctor Boyer, referenced, namely that psychology as a science, he argues, has gotten a lot healthier. So as it's moved into the twenty first century, it's become, you know, a a lot more, a lot more, you might say, realistic and helpful. Do you think that's fair, doctor Boyer? No. No. That's right on. Yeah. And if you if you have the opportunity to listen to his commencement address, it will be time very, very well spent, especially if you're considering applying to DMU. That'll provide a very nice snapshot of the kind of environment that you'll be getting into and the kind of work that you'll be, beginning as a clinician.

1:16:04Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay. So I want to attend to this question. So Jeff asked, what's the difference between a PhD and a PsyD? Doctor Borer, do you wanna take that one? Yeah. Sure. So as I mentioned earlier, there are ways that the field of, like, social work, for example, and psychology parallel. The same is true with these two kinds of degrees, the PsyD, the PhD. In a lot of ways, especially now, 2023, they look very similar. I think the what distinguishes the two is, a lot of the research portion. So as a PsyD, recipient, I still did a dissertation, and I still did a lot of research at Divine Mercy University, which I love. I thought that was great. But the the thrust of the program is to train as a clinician, and so we're practitioner scholars.

1:17:08Both of those are emphasized. If you're getting a PhD in psychology, in all actuality, the training, the process is going to look quite similar, but there'll be perhaps more of an emphasis on the research side. Certainly, if you're wanting to do a psychology degree with the idea of getting into academia, specifically, PhD may be a a good way to go. And not that you can't get into academia deciding. You can. Tons of my peers have done it. My spouse has done it. But that that PhD piece, there's a different way to emphasize the way they go about research. I hope that helps, sir. Is that kind of your interpretation or your understanding of it as well? Yeah. Yeah. That that that is that is fine as well.

1:18:03And I think like you like you like you said, getting the PsyD doesn't preclude you from having an academic career. In fact, a number of our own faculty have house IDs, you know, and they they carry out research. Though I would say, you know, for example, if you wanted let's say that you're a person that wanted divine mercy for its Catholic character and its the meta model and what have you, but you also were serious about research and you perhaps wanted to be a professor. The thing to do after the doctorate is probably do a postdoc, you know, in some area. Let's just say that, you know, doctor Boy had referenced, his experience in neuroscience, you know, with his with his externship. That might be that's a that's a particularly hot, you know, area of research in psychology that you would probably need to do a postdoc after after the PsyD.

1:18:57But that would you know, getting a PsyD certainly opens the door to academia even if it's even if research in the program itself doesn't have as much emphasis as as a PhD program. What does that sound fair, doctor Walz? And I I would say in the PsyD program at DMU, you are gonna be doing a lot of research. You are going to be writing a dissertation. It's excellent. Just the the way it's distinguished or the way it's approached may look a little bit different from a PhD program. But at the end of the day, a lot of professionals view the PhD in the PsyD generally as synonymous. Yeah. Yeah. I'd agree. They're they're they're virtually interchangeable. I mean, so I would say, you know, it's true that the the PsyD has a more recent vintage.

1:19:51It was it was created, you know, after the PhD has been around longer. But, you know, in today's day and age, they're they're, just each of them are just as good. Okay. Somebody has asked okay. So you mentioned five for the years for the program, including the masters. So if someone already has another degree, for example, as myself, I have a medical degree, how long, for just the study program? Okay. Good. Pretty common question. Good question. The the thing, though, is this. We would be able to transfer up to 18 credits of previous graduate work. So let's say if you have a master's in counseling, or even master's in psychology or things like this, or even if you have a a doctoral degree in a related field, we will be able to accept maximally 18 credits.

1:20:45Okay? So that is tantamount to about a semester and some change, roughly speaking, because, I mean, our semester credits range from 14 to 18 credits, so that's, like, on the on brand. So truth be told, that's not that much. Right? So if, you know, it's like some people will ask, you know, should I get a master's degree before I enter the society? It's like, no. Likely, you're going to be spending more time and money. But if you already have the degree, we would take that much and no more for the for the simple reason that, we do want to maintain sort of, like, the integrity of our own program and our own sort of character such that, you know, once you, leave our school, you will have been truly formed, by our own program and not and not that of another.

1:21:42So I hope that that answers your question. Okay. Good. With that, I will conclude. I'd like to thank doctor Garrett Boyer for, your time. It was I was I really enjoy our conversation, and I think that we, explored a lot of great territory that I think would be very helpful for a lot of our prospective students. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me today, sir. I really appreciate getting the opportunity to visit with you and to, share a little bit of my own story and my own journey in psychology. If you're considering applying, I'll just leave you with this. There's a widening gap, between the folks who need behavioral health services and those who are able to provide it. You are needed in our world today.

1:22:35If this is a step that you are considering, Tate, I highly encourage you to go down this road, explore it, be assured of my support, my prayers, and and my appreciation for your willingness to consider this route. And so we're gonna say goodbye here, but it's not like a goodbye goodbye. It's a we'll talk later. By all means, feel free to reach out to me if there's ever anything I can do to support you along your journey. Excellent. Thank you, doctor Boyer, and goodbye to you all, and God bless.