Spiritual Direction Certificate webinar with Dr. David Chen

0:05Hello. Welcome. My name is Maria Brackett. I'm the director of the spiritual direction certificate here at Divine Mercy University. I always like to have these moments to just reach out to some some of you that are interested in our program. Maybe I've heard of it from one way or another, and I've gotten this invitation to the webinar. So we're happy to have you here. We try to have different types of webinars in the program, sometimes to talk about some different topics that have to do with with spiritual direction, having some of our students on or alumni, just to speak about the program and kind of their experience and what they're doing and where they come from in their world. Right? Good to have you all here.

0:50Well, so let's get started with our conversation here this evening. I already introduced myself, and so I'll introduce doctor David Chen, who's currently a student in the program who's just finishing up now. Right? David, do you still have a That's correct. Answer? We finished up on SDC 600. That's right. Okay. So you're just probably getting through those last hours or things like that of the practicum. Right. So it's always great for me to have the opportunity to have a student or an alumni here on these webinars just because their I think their experience is so rich, and that's the beautiful thing about this program. We just have so many people from different walks of life. I, you know, I think everyone is such a unique individual and you just kinda just see the gifts that the Lord has given them that they're gonna give to the ministry of spiritual direction.

1:43So it's always a joy to have these conversations. So as I mentioned before, this is just kinda, is a conversation between us and, doctor David Chen, as I said, is a is a student in the program right now, and I'll let him kind of explain a little bit more about himself and and his background. So I'm gonna turn it over to him, let him to, share his screen. And Absolutely. And then we will go from there. And Yes. So, David, so good to have you. Thank you, Maria. Thank you for being with us. What a privilege it is to be with all of you today. I am very thankful to the Lord, our God, that we are all brought together here today. And I just wanted to, really express my, deep gratitude, to Maria and her faculties, in the Divine Mercy University, spiritual directioning certificate program, for having me here today.

2:54It's really a exciting time, for us to talk about spiritual directioning, and for us to really kind of, understand how it fits into, the the way in which different occupational backgrounds can actually, thrive and benefit from spiritual direction training and also a understanding of what that is. So, I'll just give you a little bit of the agenda for today. I'm gonna talk a little bit about my background, real quick, and then I will then progress on to talking about, the general, Divine Mercy University certificate program class. Get a chance to show you some of my classmates that I've met, beautiful people that I've met over, the past two years, in the program. And then to kinda talk about kind of the application and the in the future direction collaborations that can come about, through the certificate training program and the coursework performed.

3:59So first talk about my background first. So I am a I've been a student at divine mercy university through for the spiritual directioning certificate program. I started in, the winter semester in 2022. And I, have progressed through the, courses, over the last two years. I when I'm not a student at Divine Mercy University, my day job is I am a psychiatrist in private practice. I own and operate my practice, treating patients and working as a clinician. I'm a physician by training. I went to University of Rochester School of Medicine, for my background training and then did my psychiatry residency training program over, in Baltimore at Shepherd Pratt, the University of Maryland. I've been in, it's my twentieth year, after medical school graduation.

5:01So really entered into the, the DMU spiritual directioning program eighteen years after starting, after having completed medical school. So it's not, something that you cannot do later on in your career when you find called, by God to, begin that journey. So, I have been practicing in the Washington DC, Chevy Chase area, for the last about fifteen years in private practice. And my area of focus has been on treating individuals with impulse control, problems. I'm a child psychiatrist as well. So I treat folks from the age of six until 60. What I found that, in my private practice in my work is that, over time you come to see, just naturally by by being a christian and a catholic, you naturally begin to see more and more folks, who are of similar faith background.

6:08And as a, pro life psychiatrist, one of two in the state of Maryland and one of 50 in The United States, ultimately, I felt moved to, actually serve on the Catholic Medical Association. And I currently serve as the chair of the Catholic Medical Association, medical student and resident pro life boot camp, training program. There, this is the most recent, twenty twenty three class photo. Medical students around the country, Catholic physicians, surgeons, OB GYNs, other doctors come to this summer boot camp to actually, learn, what pro life medicine is. And a part of that program is, teaching them about spiritual discernment and spirituality, for which I promote, the Divine Mercy University training program, very passionately, letting them know that at some point as pro life physicians themselves, this training will be critical for them.

7:09We actually spend a full day, where the chaplain of the, Catholic medical association would talk about, their prayer life and their spirituality. So as you can see, the practice of medicine and practice of mental health care, come hand in hand, with spiritual training, and spiritual discernment training. This is very, very important. So that is, kind of the basis to talk about why I entered into, divine mercy university spiritual direction program in the first place. I started to realize as I began to treat, a lot of feasts, and also religious, folks with religious callings or vocations, as well as very faithful, Christian and Catholic families that a lot of the, mainstream or even Catholic anthropology based mental health diagnostic processes, have a blind spot, in that, paradigm.

8:16The the the main difficulty, has to do with the fact that when you diagnose and treat, individuals, you're ultimately still kind of falling back upon a more secular kind of a paradigm that at at times does not place a premium on listening to God's will and listening to God's direction on how to what might be the most, beneficial, route to take for, a particular priest, laity, or individual of faith. With my non, Christian or non religious patients, you could even see after a while that this dimension is also very important for them because ultimately, when they come into health care, environments, they're dealing with a lot of, life purpose based Questions, what what phase of their life they're in?

9:20Why why is this? There's a lot of why questions? There's a lot of like how come now? And especially in mental health care. There's a lot of identity based who am I type of, questions that all come together around the what we understand as christians and catholics to be, questions related to god, and god's will for us And so without that dimension well cleared out in training or in our education, which, don't know about those of you guys who are listening. But at at Rochester Medical School, they don't teach you about listening to the spirit, in medical school. So this is a dimension that, I really came to realize that I needed more training in. So, you know, after, starting the certificate program, you go through the, spiritual directioning certificate courses, 100, 200, and 300.

10:19And at the end of the 300 course, you actually come together as a class. Here's my class. After the, 300 class, we have a residency program together where we all come together. I think in this class, we have over, 15, close to 20, members together. And then we practice the material that we have learned together as a class and to, begin to put it into practice in listening to one another and to begin to understand what that deeper listening involves, and to really, come to terms with how to help someone else listen to God's will for them. So so it's a really beautiful and, flourishing experience. I had a great, very rich experience as you can tell by my large smile, on that in that in that picture.

11:15So really, really terrific. And what what what we learned in that residency and also the courses leading up to it is really you begin to hear, in either your directees or in your patients' lives, you know, if you're just doing clinical work, or just working with, your neighbors or friends and you're you're listening to their life stories, you'll begin to hear, stories about their work, their way of loving, their neighbor or loving God, and maybe even the domains of their marital relations with their spouse. And what you'll find is that these are the areas where a lot of questions and uncertainty emerge. And without the skills of being able to hone in and dial into helping them listen to God and how God moves them, this is gonna be something that will be, difficult to, participate in a in a more meaningful way with, those that you care for.

12:21So, that actually, is what, I really have come to appreciate, in the training program. So as the courses go on past 300, that wraps up the first year, and then you get into the second year, which I'm I'm sure Maria will, answer questions about and maybe talk more about the layout of the coursework. And as you're progressing toward, this last course that I took, into the 600 course, you begin to see a lot more complexity related to how spiritual direction interfaces with mental health care, interfaces with health care, interface with, domains that may surface. And at this point in the training, you begin to perceive it more from the vantage point of the spiritual director as opposed to, let's say, when I first entered the program, I began more as a clinician's perspective.

13:19And as a spiritual director's perspective, and now that I have my own spiritual directees, you begin to see, what a privilege it is to be able to know how to listen to the movement of the holy spirit and others at such a deep level, to understand how God loves and respects every soul. And that journey of that individual soul with God, and it the beauty that is, incredible. I mean, this is stuff that you don't learn in medical school or residency training, stuff that we certainly don't teach at the pro life boot camp. We, can't even imagine how how that would even be able to squeak be squeezed in there. But at the end of the day, the bottom line is after these, you know, many months of training, you can see that the importance is really to help that individual find and build that relationship with the holy spirit and God.

14:19And through that relationship with the holy spirit and God, they're able to then begin to understand the journey's up and downs, health or not health that they've traversed, and what that means in the grander scheme of following God and following the Holy Spirit within themself. And that process of following them becomes the main focus of the director's listening, and work with the directee. So here then tying it back to mental health care and physicians, the issue really is that the collaboration now begin becomes a two way street because the spiritual director wants to continue to, accompany and to follow and to build in that meaning meaningful, very rich, loving spiritual life that the directee has, engaged in with the holy spirit.

15:20And in so much as their health or, their mental health is being taken care of by a mental health provider, a counselor, a psychotherapist, or a psychiatrist, that's wonderful. I mean, there's it's it's really nice to know that their health is being taken care of in that way, that they have physical ups and downs, ill health, that they have a physician they can work with. That's also really beautiful to know that the doctors are taking good care of them, and you'll hear about how the soul and the directee themselves are able to value their relationships with their physician or their counselor. And as long as their mental conditions or physical health, continues to be accompanied in that way, it really doesn't interfere with the work of the spiritual direction.

16:15I think some individuals who come into spiritual direction who does not yet have a counselor or a or a physician for their health issues, What the spiritual director is doing is listening to the journey of that person's relationship with the holy spirit. And if that listening process becomes interfered with by the health concerns or the mental health concerns or whatnot, then the spiritual director has the ability to refer out, that task to the counselor or to the physician so that we can get into that former situation where I just described, where everything is really beautifully witnessed in the care of that individual, the dignity of that individual, that is made in the image of god. Conversely, if a counselor and or a physician, treating their patient, or clients find that they're experiencing, though their health is improving or maybe their mental health condition is pretty stable, they find that that potentially, somehow there's still something missing.

17:26This person's not able to see a greater purpose to this suffering process and or that the medication they're using to treat the patient is now becoming excessively heavy, that is a good sign to really recognize that maybe there is a role for referral to a spiritual director where this person can actually derive some deeper sense of understanding of how God is journeying with them, loving them, and caring for them. So there's a great kind of, open space, sacred open space for collaboration between spiritual directors, and physicians or therapist counselors. One thing I do know is that in the Christian and Catholic community, a lot of times, patients do not present to psychotherapist or psychiatrists first.

18:19They actually have a deeper connection to, their, friends at church or with their pastor or priest. They'll actually find a spiritual director first, and be able to actually form very meaningful relationships where a good spiritual director who actually, for example, trains at, Divine Mercy University's, spiritual directioning program, they would know when that referral needs to be made to a physician or to a counselor or a therapist. So there's a lot of this kind of cross collaboration that really, becomes a fruitful ground for work being done by professionals in the community. And I think this is something that, here's the photo of my graduating class. So, you can see that the class size is a little bit smaller, and I want to say that the reason is because, the program caters to your professional life.

19:18Your professional life has, busy seasons and seasons that are less, busy. And some folks will take a semester off, to tend to those things and then rejoin at the next cohort, which is an option I've exercised once in my program as well. So I find that to be a really beautiful experience. And then those that have kept with you throughout the entire, program that resemble, Judy in blue here in blue here, she will be graduating this year. Congratulations to Judy. And Judy and I have started to, form a, peer, supervision, spiritual direction supervision group together where graduates will be listening to each other to help each other listen to their directees. So friendships are formed, in the program, and, it will last a lifetime.

20:16By the way, so we have two deacons in this picture, deacon George, and, and, the deacons themselves are also very much empowered to deepen their ministry, in their, diocesan work as well. So that's a that's a real blessing. So, I want to say that in all, in summary, I think that it has the spiritual directioning certificate has added, a new dimension to my clinical work, and provided me with additional, tools to be able to help the Catholic, Christian, or religious individuals that I treat for mental health care. As well, it has provided me with an option, to, step away from clinical work and to be with, my Christian or Catholic brothers and sisters and be able to accompany them and journey with them in their spiritual growth process, as their spiritual director.

21:25And I find that to be the highest privilege and a great honor. So, with that, I think that, we have plenty of time to open up to questions or any comments. I'm sure Maria has parts of the program and other stuff that she wants to share as well. Thank you so much. Thinking, doctor David? How will if we if anyone has any questions, any of the participants have questions to you, whether about your experience or just, you know, these these kind of two worlds, having your profession being the world of mental health, but also having this ministry and spiritual direction. You know, if anyone has any questions to you in particular, maybe we could take those now. And, then I could go on and explain a little bit kind of complementing your experience, just a little bit of some of the nuts and bolts of the program.

22:17So if you have any questions in particular to for doctor David, just put them in the q and a, box, and, we can take those questions. You know, I was when you were speaking, you know, I'll just ask a question now as we're waiting for questions to come in. But while you were speaking, I was just on you know? So you're you were drawn to the program because you felt like, just like a nudge from the Lord to go in this direction. You saw the need. What was it in particular? Yeah. So, after, having been, identified, as a pro life psychiatrist, you end up, with a lot of priestly religious or otherwise faithful Catholic families that are referred to you for treatment. And when you apply Catholic anthropology in the mental health treatment process, you actually will, do alright initially, But then you'll end up hitting a wall where you begin to encounter, especially in psychiatric mental health care, where the patient or the client begin to ask life purpose or meaning questions, especially in terms of do you think this is where god wants me to move and where god wants me to go?

23:43And, typically, when those questions surface, if you're not working in a Catholic anthropology model or, you know, as a Catholic provider, the secular my secular colleagues would try to answer those type of questions, using, typically, the run of the mill answers that are provided, in their training. And it'll usually be overly reductive, kind of not, holistic. It'll actually come back to kind of a way where a person is brought down to their disease or their dysfunction type of level, or maybe it would just be a situational problem solving, kind of a way of understanding situations. But when you're working with folks of genuine and honest sincere faith, there's just no way that you can, in good conscience, apply that type and approach or even find that Catholic anthropology is sufficient on its own to provide those type of answers.

24:49And so it really gets down to listening. It really gets down to listening to what they're hearing, what they're hearing from the holy spirit. And that's where you hit the wall because you're like, I don't really know what what what it is that they're actually hearing. I mean, I need to understand that a little bit more. Right? So those questions start bringing you into this this realm that you're like, gosh. I, you know, I would like to be able to help these maybe not these particular people, but to help people in general know, to to be able to discover, you know, or to see the Like as you said just so so beautifully, just have a greater clarity about the Lord's narrative in their own life.

25:31Yeah. Like, when a priest or a deacon brings up that they they they want to introduce a new program into their ministry, do you think that's a good idea given my health condition? I mean, that's a very difficult question actually to answer, to to really understand because you gotta first put into context what their limitations are based on their health condition. That part is actually easier. But then once you put that into context and you think about, well, then, however, does God really intend for this individual to Mhmm. Take that next step in this direction? That requires them to listen. It requires them to listen deeper in themselves and their relationship with the holy spirit. And I think that's really where the skill set really, comes Mhmm.

26:14Clear that you need that. And Mhmm. So the spiritual directioning certificate program provides that Mhmm. Type of an understanding. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. K. So let's see. There's some questions here. Okay. So, deacon Thomas, let's see. About the residencies and the meetings and how long they are, let me just leave that because there is a question for doctor David here. Are there any challenges you would like to share with us regarding the journey of the spiritual director training? Like, were there any challenges that came up for you as you're going through that being, and then how did you deal with these challenges? Yeah. So that's a great question. And I I don't know whether the person asking this is a therapist, counselor, or somebody in the helping profession that's passed.

27:07He's a pastor. Great. Mhmm. So generally speaking, I think, even as a pastor or priest or as a therapist or counselor, most of our, listening immediately translates into some form of either coaching, treating, recommending, or restructuring type of an activity that we do. So initially when I I I would say up through to about SDC 300, a lot of my initial, kind of suppositions or default was to kick right into kind of the fixing mode, of action. And I couldn't really understand how wonderful and blessed it was to have deep listening. This process of deep listening was not yet fully understood, at that point. So a lot of times in the initial practices with my classmates, and our vignette examples in the 200 course and the 300 course, I would immediately go into making recommendations, you know, telling them this is what I think I hear.

28:20Like, I, you know, I hear this, so you should go do that. I think this, so you should go do which is generally something that therapists, were more active with their, modality would do anyways. And so I think in that sense, that actually, would be compatible. But in spiritual directioning, you begin to understand that it's really their listening to the Holy Spirit and their, kind of collaboration with God that really is where the clarity and the peace will begin to take hold, in the relationship you have with your directee. So I think that's really where the first challenge was for me, was to shift your Kind of moving from the different spheres even though it's one on one. Right? And you're saying, oh, it's one on one, but it's just that it goes about it in a different way, and it really has a different purpose.

29:14Right? Exactly. Really connecting the person with the Lord and helping them to have that deeper connection with him. Exactly. Exactly right. Yep. Mhmm. Perfect. Beautiful question. Okay. So this is from Marlyn. As a spiritual director, one will be covering or helping a direct you with things concerning well, this is a question. So as a spiritual director, will one be covering or helping a direct you with things concerning psychological health? I know you mentioned learning in the program when to refer to a specialist. What things are you able to tell someone to encourage them and give them hope? So I guess it's kind of that she's wondering, like, do you cover, or you help them with psychological health?

30:02Right. So We're all intertwined. Right? It's Right. And that's why it's like we can just, like, separate off these things. Right? Absolutely. So what I really try to do in spiritual directioning is actually to not be a psychiatrist or a therapist, in what I do. You know, there there there is a way where one does not need to diagnose. But I just wanna say, though, individuals who are suffering with tremendous amount of burden or carries a heavy cross mental health wise, the the key really is whether that cross is, in their spiritual relationship with the holy spirit, whether that cross is now blocking their ability to hear the holy spirit. So in a spiritual direction session, you could tell whether this noise, so we'll call it noise, whether this, mental health noise is loud enough that's going on in their life that actually prevents either of you, the director or the director, from being able to hear what this holy spirit is doing, in the person's in the soul's life.

31:08And so at that point, you then would, recommend them to, you know, over time and gently, based on their pace, make ask them whether they would make a recommend like, follow-up with a recommendation that you might make, whether they want a recommendation from you, the director, for someone to provide them with mental health care, or physical condition, as well. Of course, more obligation wise, if there is a urgent need and somehow that becomes obvious to me, because of my other hats, I'm not gonna lay that aside and not, provide them with the treatment of a dignified way, for them to find care. But at the end of the day, the the key is really about, in the spiritual directioning work about hearing the holy spirit in their life and whether that is interfered with by their condition.

32:04Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And one thing that I do wanna say also, Marlon, added to that is that, you know, in the spiritual direction certificate, you don't you're not learn you're not learning how to diagnose these things because you're not going to medical school, and you're not becoming a mental health counselor. All you're learning to do is to hear the noise and kind of understand the nature of the noise. Right? And based on that so you're not looking for a diagnosis. You're just looking more to build a trustful relationship so that you can share with the directee sometimes if you are hearing some noise that's that's hindering. And, and then kind of point them in the in the direction that you think, you know, have you ever thought about going to someone and talking about the difficulties that you're having in this relationship?

32:57You know, I'm not a I'm not a therapist. My my specialty is not human relationships. So have you ever you know, could you would you think about doing that? Right? So you don't have to diagnose or come to uncertainty about exactly what they're suffering, but you just have to know enough, to send them in the direction. And not, you know, just offering them that you can't make them do that. You you know? But just offering that because of of what you're experiencing, in their effort. It's almost like they're trying to to hear the Lord, but because something is distracting them without you know, it's not like they're willfully being distracted. They just it's almost like something is kicking them in the knees, and they're just not able to move forward.

33:44Right? That's that's when that happens. There's another question. You mentioned more than once interactions with pea with people of the Catholic faith. Are there also interaction with folks of other faiths as the Lutheran's Baptist Methodist? What is your experience with them? Well, I guess that question is for you. Yes. So I actually have patients who are Protestant as well. I have born again patients. I have patients where, they are, of Protestant or former Anglican background, other denominations. In my clinical practice, the spiritual direction of certificate has been very helpful in helping me hear that in the context of, their mental health concerns and how the spirit is journeying with them in that process.

34:43In which case then, I would suggest to them that they would need spiritual directors, or someone to help them, when that occasion comes up. So from the clinical side, it's helped very helpful in that way because Mhmm. Now this level of hearing or listening is available, in in in in that domain, in my clinical practice, that actually has been very helpful. In terms of the, the spiritual direction side of things, I have classmates I have classmates of mine who are pastors, who are protestant, whom have served and worked with their their community. So, Christian or Catholic, both have availed themselves of the Divine Mercy University spiritual directioning certificate program and have benefited tremendously with that.

35:37Pastor Ben, you know, no last name, but pastor Ben has been, brilliantly, able to apply, this spiritual directioning skill set to his flock and his work, in his community. So, I think that over time, I would only imagine that, as more and more directees, are a part of my day to day work, this would also be the situation as well because I'm already doing that on the clinical side in terms of listening to opportunities for referral to spiritual directors. Mhmm. Exactly. Exactly. Well said, doctor David. Thank you. Well, let's, I'm gonna ask you to stop sharing, and I'm gonna go back to my presentation that gives a little bit more information about the program. Wonderful. So that we can just, you know, kinda hit some things on on this.

36:46No. We've already talked some about the program and spiritual direction. So I kinda wanted to show you, kind of the nuts and bolts. Right? So it's a it's a six course program as doctor David was saying. You know, it's done over a two year period. You do have the opportunity. We, we just reconfigured it a little bit, the program. So we do ask you to take the two first courses consecutively because we won't really just wanna get that learning, under your belt. And then after that, in the 300 to the 600, you could you you do have the possibility of taking a leave of absence one term. But, really, the whole rhythm of the program is pretty light in the fact that you're taking three eight week courses a year.

37:37Right? We really try to make this for people that are working or doing a full time other life or a couple full time other lives. Right? So that this could fit in. Right? So there are two residencies. I think, Deacon Thomas, you asked me about these. The residencies begin Wednesday evening with a meet and greet, and then the classes are Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Sunday morning is a time just to kind of for you to wrap up, have some personal reflection, and also to meet with a faculty member to get feedback about your residency and give you, you know, always your areas up that we've just seen you stellar and where, you know, so opportunities for growth there. And those are one on one meetings.

38:25Also in the program, in order to graduate, you have to do sixty practicum hours, and this consists of forty eight hours of seeing people in spiritual direction and twelve hours of supervision. The we do ask you to find those directees yourself. There are little baby steps that happen throughout the program, so it's not difficult. It's not like we just send you out, without without being coached on how to do this, and how to build those relationships. And the twelve hours of supervision are given within the fifth and the sixth course. So you have your instructor who serves as your supervisor. They're really like coaching sessions and really help you as you're seeing people in spiritual direction.

39:08Ask questions and, you know, I think those are just beautiful experiences. Aren't they, those supervision sessions, doctor David? Yeah. They are. They are. Yeah. They're just super helpful, and it's a beautiful sharing among peers, but also with the presence of the instructor there just to to clarify and to teach and to coach and to to help you just to to kinda see what's going on with you as you're giving spiritual direction, which is really kind of the kernel of supervision. Then these are the courses. This information is also on our website. We actually just changed the name of the first course to make it a little bit shorter. So it's actually called life in Christ and spiritual direction.

39:58But these are the six courses there, and they're basically an intertwining, spiritual theology, what life and life in Christ and growth and our communion with the Lord looks like, you know, the normal kind of how that happens. And then human development, how a person develops across their lifetime and also human relationships. Also giving you an opportunity to spend some time just thinking about how you've developed over your lifetime and those human relationships. And then, discernment and spiritual growth, you know, just kind of going into the four hundred and five hundred and six hundred are going deeper into the spiritual life, deeper into the skills that you need as a spiritual director and deeper into some of those different issues or situations or scenarios that could happen, in in a person as they journey towards the lord, and as well as the coaching that's being done in the five hundred and six hundred as you see people in spiritual direction.

41:00The residencies, well, doctor David spoke about that. These are just, you know and I and I mentioned them. There's two of them. They basically end up being one each year. Right? The first one is at the end of your third course, and the second one is at the beginning of your fifth course. And it's just kind of where, you know, we try to put those residencies best where they fit in the curriculum to help you in your learning process. They're on campus here in Sterling, Virginia. They're always a great opportunity, just to you know, these people that you've come to know and love through a screen, now you actually get to see and in person, and the relationships just grow, the friendships just grow, and and the peer support.

41:44You know, it's very common what doctor David was saying that, you know, people from the students afterwards will form or peer support groups. So they have that support as they go out and give spiritual direction. So, each each term is eight weeks. So every course is eight weeks. You only can take one course at a time. It usually requires six to nine hours a week on your part, for all the different type of things that could happen during that course, the different assignments and things. There's usually about a nine to ten week break between each term. So that gives you time to kinda dedicate yourself to some other stuff, maybe do some reading or praying over material that you've been given.

42:29And most people finish in two years. The core the cost of the course, each course is $800. The residencies have a little higher cost because we pay for the lodging and the food and and the teaching and the materials. Right? And so all in all, I think the total, cost of the certificate is $7,000. And then if you need, as you're finishing your practicum hours, we ask you to enroll in either practicum, which is $50 a term, or practicum with supervision, which just allows you that as you're in practicum to get also supervision from an instructor in the program. Some people are in practicum and have already found a supervisor, and, so they, you know, they just keep are enrolled for the practicum and then have their own supervision.

43:22So, Patty, you had a question here. Can you please speak about the, more about the supervision? Great. Patty, I recognize your name. I think, you know, I think you've applied to the program. We'd be happy to have you. So, about the supervision. The supervision so supervision is given within the program itself. Okay? Supervision is something that is pretty much known as the best practice in the spiritual direction world. And it's it's kind of like a mentor figure, someone that's experienced spiritual director. Sometimes it can be a clinician that understands the world of spiritual direction and maybe, you know, kind of like doctor David also practices as a spiritual director. Right? And so, you can meet individually with them or you can meet in a group.

44:17In the program, we do group supervision. And so the supervision is given in the program. You really learn about supervision as you go through the program. We have you read texts about it so that you can understand what we're talking about and kind of where the the this tradition comes from and, and why we'd be using this means. And then we set it up for you, and you do it in the program. And then at the end of 600, we talk. We have you actually do an exercise where you start thinking about what type of supervisor would I like to have, what type of supervision would I like to have going forward. Is there anyone that I know that I could reach out to to ask to be my supervisor? We're gonna coach you through that, finding a supervisor.

45:00Patty, does that help you? Let me know if you have some more questions about that. I don't know if you wanna say anything about that, doctor David. Yeah. So I think that, some folks who enter into the program already have having had spiritual direction in the past, so that they may have somebody that is their spiritual director, but that's not the same as a supervisor or supervision, which supervision and supervisor you'll begin to have as you begin to progress through the course. Initially, it might be a faculty that is, with the SCC program, but you'll definitely, kind of identify those individuals, at the SDC 300 residency, begin to have that kind of an experience with someone in mind that you really, kinda have gravitated toward.

45:52And then as you go on with the course, of course, you might begin to, have your own spiritual directees, in which case then you'll begin to look for supervision, and that is offered, like Maria said, that you could get within the program itself. It could be one of the, the supervisors that is teaching a course at that time who will also provide you with supervision, or it will be during one of these gaps or during the practicum where you could choose, a supervisor who will listen to you. And in those settings, you may actually be doing it in a group where you could also learn from other people, who are also reviewing their cases with the supervisor, their direction cases with their with the supervisor, and you can learn from each other.

46:39And then as you graduate or move to a graduation, you might identify peers, in a peer group process where you might be listening to each other and helping each other listen to that process. But the idea really is that, you know, two two discerning spirits or two discerning souls together is probably a a a very good method for helping to listen to how the directee is cooperating or working with the holy spirit, and what direction they're going with. And that's a good way of doing that. Mhmm. And just to to add on to that, all these conversations about your directees are confidential. You don't use any information that could identify who that person is. And and then the environment is confidential too.

47:26So, Patty, I see that you wanted to know too. I think you were asking about the cost. So there's just, you know, like, any type of kind of technical like, you're learning the artist's virtual direction. So there's a technical part to this program, and then there's, like, this content part to it. So this whole idea of practicum and learning how to do it. Some people finish their practicum hours when they finish x SDC 600. Right? But, basically, our rule of thumb is once you start giving spiritual direction to people, which isn't 500, you always need to have the opportunity of supervision. If you're enrolled in a class, you will have supervision. But if you're in one of these gaps between your classes or you finish the 600 class and you still need to do a considerable amount of hours, practicum, then we always ask you to enroll, so that you stay enrolled in the university and that you have supervision.

48:27Alright? So this is where it just it it's hard sometimes to explain it to you guys because it's so theoretical for you at this point in time. As you go through the promo, it becomes much more practical. Right? So you actually understand better what I'm talking about. But so there's just some possibilities there. So it could add on $50 more to that 7,000 total charge or could add a $100 more into that total charge, 7,000. It wouldn't you probably wouldn't do this more than two terms. So we're not talking about a considerable amount of money. We try to keep that as low as possible. Really, what you pay us for the practicum with supervision is just to pay the instructors for their time for the supervisors.

49:14I hope that answers your questions, Patty. Thank you. Great. I know it's it's sometimes you know? It's a it's a it's a it's a skill and a knowledge, and it's a training to actually do something. So it's got a lot of different moving parts to it. Like like, it's so common in a lot of other fields. Well, thank you, Suwad. Nice to meet you. Yes. Okay. Lisa, thank you so much. My husband heard on Catholic radio the other morning. He was talking about how priests should be only ones that can give spiritual direction. So there's actually a document of the church that was put out in 2011 where the, where the church just reflects on that and very clearly says that the the history of the church shows that there's been lay spiritual directors and priests and religious, and there's different moments in history when different people have done different things.

50:15But, yeah, the church doesn't see the ministry of spiritual direction just being limited to priests or to religious. But, the document, which is a document, and for the congregations of the clergy put out, it's called priest, minister of the sacrament, and spiritual direction. And in that second part of that document is where they talk about this. But, you know, and father John I always say to people, Pope John Paul the second's first spiritual director that led him into deep prayer was a layman, Jan Tronalski. And Saint Catherine of Siena, even though we don't often think about this, was was not a religious sister. She was just a lay woman dedicated to the ward, and so there's definitely examples of that.

51:06Marlene, you read on the university website that you will need professional liability insurance. Yes. We actually have a comp it's hard to find for spiritual directors, but it's an exercise that we want you to do as you go through the program because we just feel like it's important for you. It also helps us in our screening of you as spiritual directors, and it just we just think it's a good, thing to go through. So we actually did the hard work to try to find a company, and and we did. And it's very it's like $35, I think. It's $35. Yeah. It's very affordable. It's really minimum. And we ask you to have it when you're seeing people in spiritual direction, when you start as a student, when you start seeing people in spiritual direction.

51:53So, you don't need this until the 500 course, and we take you through the steps of it so that you you have that information. And the approval process is very straightforward in comparison to medical malpractice, which I also carry, separately to the spiritual directioning, liability insurance. The spiritual direction application process was very easy, very straightforward. Yeah. I mean, they just wanna make sure that you are a student of a program, that you're getting, you know, the the oversight that you need and right? Yeah. Absolutely. And it just teach it teaches. I mean, for us as a program, it has an educational purpose of just teaching you how to do that if you ever need it. There's all different scenarios for spirit people that are practicing as spiritual directors.

52:41So there might be scenarios where you would need it. So we'd we'd like you to be able to learn how to do that. Absolutely, Patty. Yeah. Great. Well, thank you. Well, I think we can we can wrap it up. Thank you so much Yeah. Doctor David for being here with us. You're welcome, Maria. Thank you, everybody. It's a pleasure and a privilege to be here with all of you guys. It was a great turnout, and I really, want all of you guys to know that the Holy Spirit has led you here today, and it's grace that brought us all together. And I think that that beauty, we should cherish and, that you pray deeply about where this would take it for your next step. Okay? Thank you, Maria, for everything. Yes. Thank you.

53:26I think everyone's just saying I'm trying to check just to make sure, but everyone's just saying thank you. I think, Jacqueline, you had a question. Yes. It's there's not a problem about about the insurance. It covers anyone in The United States, so Texas is fine too. Thank you so much. God bless you all. Always like to pray for the people that I have seen in the webinar, the after. So please count on those prayers, and god bless you and count on those prayers for you too. Thank you, doctor David. Absolutely. God bless you all. Take care. Bye. Bye, Maria.